Mondeo TDCI Not starting

[mark_leics]

Hi,

I've got an 02 Mondeo TDCi 130PS that won't start, but will run while Easy Start is sprayed into the intake manifold.

I've checked for debris in the fuel filter and there is none. When I monitor the fuel rail pressure when turning over this registers around 40,000 kPa. So I'm fairly confident the pump is ok.

I'm not getting any actuation signal to the fuel injectors. All the sensors check out as fine, and as there were no DTC's I thought the problem could be the injector driver module (the Delphi ECU under the n/s wing). I've got hold of a used IDM, but I'm still getting the same problem.

I'm running out of ideas. Has anyone got any suggestions for what to try next?:giveup:

Mark

[ziggystardust]

Hi,

I've got an 02 Mondeo TDCi 130PS that won't start, but will run while Easy Start is sprayed into the intake manifold.

I've checked for debris in the fuel filter and there is none. When I monitor the fuel rail pressure when turning over this registers around 40,000 kPa. So I'm fairly confident the pump is ok.

I'm not getting any actuation signal to the fuel injectors. All the sensors check out as fine, and as there were no DTC's I thought the problem could be the injector driver module (the Delphi ECU under the n/s wing). I've got hold of a used IDM, but I'm still getting the same problem.

I'm running out of ideas. Has anyone got any suggestions for what to try next?:giveup:

Mark
Maybe a crankshaft sensor

[smirnoff_rules]

there is a common fault with these

Ford Mondeo 2001 - 2002 2.0 TDCi and Focus 1.8 TDCi

Problem: Engine does not run properly or fails to start.

Solution: A problem has been identified with the diesel pump and wear to the rollers and shoes. This is caused by insufficient bedding in when the car is new. This can also create small metal particles to contaminate the diesel and damage many components including the injectors. A sample of diesel should be inspected. A new diesel pump with revised rollers and shoes should be fitted along with new injectors and other parts if required.

[mark_leics]

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't checked the crank sensor signal on an oscilloscope, but I am getting an RPM signal when cranking. I've checked a fuel sample and there's no evidence of contamination.

I am now getting a signal to the injectors with the new ECU, but the car still doesn't start. Checked the compression earlier an cylinder 2 is 5 bar higher than any of the other cylinders so I think there may also be a mechanical problem. Before I got the car it had been at a Ford dealer who replaced a valve, so I plan to check that they have set the valve timing correctly.

Could incorrect valve timing cause a compression problem in just 3 of the cylinders?

[Larue]

Just check trace on Cam sensor as well. They are giving troubles......

[Albanais]

Just check trace on Cam sensor as well. They are giving troubles......
Hi mate
I'm graduated in this kind of fault, remove the fuel pressure sensor on the common rail and replace the joints on it. You will be able to start the engine like a magician after words

[Meat-Head]

Hi mate
the joints on it. words

Sorry late for work, are you refering to the 'o' rings?

(photo for reference of o rings)

http://www.dragtimes.com/images-classifieds-large/Mercedes-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-E320-300E-C280-S420-for-sale_120518437396.jpg

[Ashraf6119]

there is a common fault with these

Ford Mondeo 2001 - 2002 2.0 TDCi and Focus 1.8 TDCi

Problem: Engine does not run properly or fails to start.

Solution: A problem has been identified with the diesel pump and wear to the rollers and shoes. This is caused by insufficient bedding in when the car is new. This can also create small metal particles to contaminate the diesel and damage many components including the injectors. A sample of diesel should be inspected. A new diesel pump with revised rollers and shoes should be fitted along with new injectors and other parts if required.


Hi

I do agree with this post..........As i just did one yesterday which had same symptoms as yours.

And found all 4 injectors Tips were blocked and NO fuel spray coming out from the injector.

So i would advice you to remove one injector and connect the pipe and its plug then try to crank and see is there any fuel spray from the injectors.

I replaced all 4 injectors and recode them all again and the car fired same time.

Hope This help...........Good Luck.


Ash

[dacky]

i had the problem mate, changed heater plugs fired up first time

[Albanais]

Sorry late for work, are you refering to the 'o' rings?

(photo for reference of o rings)

http://www.dragtimes.com/images-classifieds-large/Mercedes-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-E320-300E-C280-S420-for-sale_120518437396.jpg
Yes mate, I'm talking about this 'o' rings, if they are cracked or corroded there is not enough pressure for to start the engine, once the engine starts there is enough bars to compensate the small lose of pressure while engine is running, this small difference is primordial for starting the vehicle, so what I suggests is to check this 'o' rings/joints before having head aches for nothing.
Cheers

[mark_leics]

Hi

I do agree with this post..........As i just did one yesterday which had same symptoms as yours.

And found all 4 injectors Tips were blocked and NO fuel spray coming out from the injector.

So i would advice you to remove one injector and connect the pipe and its plug then try to crank and see is there any fuel spray from the injectors.

I replaced all 4 injectors and recode them all again and the car fired same time.

Hope This help...........Good Luck.


Ash

No diesel came out of the injector when I tried this. No fuel from the other injectors when I tried those, so looks like these may be the problem.

[Ashraf6119]

Hi

Yes this is your problem, replace the injectors and it should start.

Ash

[Albanais]

Hi

Yes this is your problem, replace the injectors and it should start.

Ash
Yes mate if you have a leak somhwere on the system engine ECU will not alloud you to open the injectors, so not enough pressure no permition to command the injectors, with no premition for injectors naturally you have no diesel coming out from the injector. In short terms injectors are not the problem, I guess hard for it

Cheers

[mark_leics]

Yes mate if you have a leak somhwere on the system engine ECU will not alloud you to open the injectors, so not enough pressure no permition to command the injectors, with no premition for injectors naturally you have no diesel coming out from the injector. In short terms injectors are not the problem, I guess hard for it

Cheers

It does seem strange that all 4 four injectors should have failed, but I'm getting pressure (250 bar) on the fuel rail and a correct actuation signal at the injectors when checked with a scope. Despite this, I'm not getting any fuel from the injectors which is why I think Ash may be right that the problem is the injectors themselves.

[Ashraf6119]

Hi

Remove one injector and dismantle the Injector Tip and check if those 5 small holes are open or they are blocked.

Ash

[Meat-Head]

Hi

Remove one injector and dismantle the Injector Tip and check if those 5 small holes are open or they are blocked.

Ash



KEEP YOUR WILLY AND OTHER BODY PARTS AWAY FROM THE JETS, AS THERE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH PRESSURE TO DO SOME AWESOME DAMAGE

[nicamarcos]

It does seem strange that all 4 four injectors should have failed, but I'm getting pressure (250 bar) on the fuel rail and a correct actuation signal at the injectors when checked with a scope. Despite this, I'm not getting any fuel from the injectors which is why I think Ash may be right that the problem is the injectors themselves.

Ok, seem your post i can help with the next:

-If you have injection pulses on injectors when engine cranking, this mean 1000% that rail pressure reached to target rail pressure (real rail pressure must be always same to target en every engine conditions).

-Sometimes had you DTC related to rail pressure up to limit?, mean that rail pressure was greather than target pressure.

-I would do an try with your car... if you told that you have injection pulses on injectors, then take one injector and check spraying when engine cranking, if not spraying and you have rail pressure and injection pulses on injectors, this mean that injector have interior blocking, that explain if you have rail pressure up to limit DTC, mentioned at last point.:).

I had similar problem with delphi injectors in Hyundai car the 4 injectors was 1000% blocked. :)

[Albanais]

Hi

Remove one injector and dismantle the Injector Tip and check if those 5 small holes are open or they are blocked.

Ash


Hi ash
I agree with you but how could you explain the fact that if you spray brake cleaner the vehicle starts. Check the 'o' ring on the fuel pressure sensor they might be cracked and the small loose of pressure does not allow you to start the engine.
Cheers

[nicamarcos]

Hi ash
but how could you explain the fact that if you spray brake cleaner the vehicle starts.
Cheers

Engine start WHILE spraying into manifold, otherway not.

[nicamarcos]

Hi ash
Check the 'o' ring on the fuel pressure sensor they might be cracked and the small loose of pressure does not allow you to start the engine.
Cheers
Fuel pressure sensor haven`t `o`rings. :)
If there are rail pressure leackage, then not injection pulses on injectors 100%.

[Albanais]

Fuel pressure sensor haven`t `o`rings. :)
If there are rail pressure leackage, then not injection pulses on injectors 100%.
Then check the flow regulator sensor on the pump, you will finde them for sure

[ADTS]

Nicamarcos is 100% correct there is No O rings on common rail system pressure sensors (you will be thinking of bosch pressure regulators).
delphi injectors are crap, you can remove a set then put them back an hour later and they can be seized.

remove the fuel filter and emty into a clear container, and check for phosfer bronse filings, if lots of fillings the pump could be breaking up inside and then the fillings block the injectors.

regards
john

[nicamarcos]

Hi ash
I agree with you but how could you explain the fact that if you spray brake cleaner the vehicle starts. Check the 'o' ring on the fuel pressure sensor they might be cracked and the small loose of pressure does not allow you to start the engine.
Cheers


Then check the flow regulator sensor on the pump
Also never i saw FLOW REGULATOR SENSORs on the pump. I saw only Flow regulator solenoid on it.

[nicamarcos]

Nicamarcos is 100% correct there is No O rings on common rail system pressure sensors (you will be thinking of bosch pressure regulators).
delphi injectors are crap, you can remove a set then put them back an hour later and they can be seized.

remove the fuel filter and emty into a clear container, and check for phosfer bronse filings, if lots of fillings the pump could be breaking up inside and then the fillings block the injectors.

regards
john

Are you from Newcastle (England) John?

[ADTS]

Are you from Newcastle (England) John?

hello claudio, Yes, you should be a detective :)

[jnoroeste]

Hi M8, your problem is low speed when crank, spray helps to run faster, then starts.
Please check battery and starter system.
Good luck.

[ADTS]

Just read this post again and see you have allready checked for contamination.

and see you have 400 bar under crancking, at idle you should have about 230bar so 400 at crank is way too high.
2 things cause this, seized injectors, or injectors not triggered.
have you checked trigger with scope? if yes and you have signal then injectors are deffo seized

if timing was out you usualy get phasing dtc, but scope cam and crank together to check

also IMV can cause pressure problems but it would start then cut out.

regards

[nicamarcos]

hello claudio, Yes, you should be a detective :)

Glad to see you around here John! ;)
Best Regards

[Meat-Head]

late for a ~~~~o site, so got to be quick.

Mercedes have 'o' rings on the 'injection rail' somewhere, google it for reference.

[Albanais]

late for a ~~~~o site, so got to be quick.

Mercedes have 'o' rings on the 'injection rail' somewhere, google it for reference.
Exactly m8, few days ago I have had a ML 270 CDI non starter, the customer told me that if you push it the vehicle starts in 2 meters, so when I open the sensor pressure the 'o' rings where damaged, I bought them 8 Euros and 5 min later the car starts with his own starterhttp://www.eurocarparts.com/images/products/600x600/430220120.jpg

[nicamarcos]

so when I open the sensor pressure the 'o' rings where damaged, I bought them 8 Euros and 5 min later the car starts with his own starterhttp://www.eurocarparts.com/images/products/600x600/430220120.jpg

Dear, again...it isn`t RAIL PRESSURE SENSOR :), these is RAIL PRESSURE REGULATOR.
Maybe you need see an little more over Common Rail Injection systems.

[Albanais]

Dear, again...it isn`t RAIL PRESSURE SENSOR :), these is RAIL PRESSURE REGULATOR.
Maybe you need see an little more over Common Rail Injection systems.
The essential is that you understand mate, we are not here to make competitions but to help each other when we have some problems. Anyway you are more attentive so that is great for you.
Cheers

[nicamarcos]

Nobody has the intention to make competition here, just if we are able to help, do it with knowledge of the facts to avoid creating erroneus concepts and mislead but even that has problems to solve a technical problem.
Regards :).

[ADTS]

we are disscussing 2 differant systems and 2 components here.

the mercedes you refer to has a bosch cp1 common rail system, it has on the fuel rail 2 components, 1x fuel pressure sensor(no seals), and 1x fuel pressure regulator. the regulator has the seals you refer to and is a common problem for bad or no start.

this mondeo has a Delphi common rail system.
on the fuel rail is 1 componant, 1x fuel pressure sensor. (no seals)

both delphi and bosch use an actuator to control fuel pressure, but in differant ways.
bosch use the fuel pressure regulator either on the rail (merc) or on the pump. this controls pressure by dumping the high pressure within the pump back to the tank via a fuel cooler.

Delphi use an IMV (inlet metering valve) on the pump itself.
This IMV controls fuel on the low pressure side of the pump (fuel from the internal vane pump to the high pressure side)
so the seals on this IMV do not burst like the bosch ones.

not trying to cause a fight just trying to clear up the confusion.

Regards

[nicamarcos]

we are disscussing 2 differant systems and 2 components here.

the mercedes you refer to has a bosch cp1 common rail system, it has on the fuel rail 2 components, 1x fuel pressure sensor(no seals), and 1x fuel pressure regulator. the regulator has the seals you refer to and is a common problem for bad or no start.

this mondeo has a Delphi common rail system.
on the fuel rail is 1 componant, 1x fuel pressure sensor. (no seals)

both delphi and bosch use an actuator to control fuel pressure, but in differant ways.
bosch use the fuel pressure regulator either on the rail (merc) or on the pump. this controls pressure by dumping the high pressure within the pump back to the tank via a fuel cooler.

Delphi use an IMV (inlet metering valve) on the pump itself.
This IMV controls fuel on the low pressure side of the pump (fuel from the internal vane pump to the high pressure side)
so the seals on this IMV do not burst like the bosch ones.

not trying to cause a fight just trying to clear up the confusion.

Regards

+1, IMV filling fuel volume at low pressure to chamber into pump cilinder to generate high pressure on this Delphi system.
Bosch use direct high pressure regulation.
B.R

[andreo]

I had the same problem on a citroen c5 2003 hdi.the ingection sistem common rail made by Bosch.
The car did not want to start.
Solving the problem :
-After i changed the fuel pressure regulator located on the high pressure pump, problem was solved .
Now the car starts normal

[mage]

mark_leics Problem solved?

[Ashraf6119]

Hi mark_leics,

Yes Mark let us know if you have fixed this one or you still struggling with it.

Ash

[andreo]

yes:smokin:

[mark_leics]

Sorry about the late reply, but like a lot of people I was unable access The Garage whilst the changes were being made.

The car started with the replacement injectors, so you were right on the money Ash, thanks. :D I have now got an intermittent electrical fault, which I think is the injector driver module, but I am waiting for a replacement from the original supplier. The full description of what's now happening is a bit long winded, but I've put it below in italics if anyone is interested.

The car started and ran a couple of times no problems, but on the third time started misfiring and with fault code P0202 (cylinder 2 injector electrical circuit). I checked the injector coil resistance, which was fine as was the wiring harness back to the IDM connector. I cleaned the the IDM connector with switch connector, reconnected it and the car started and ran on 4 cylinders, which the fault code still present in memory but not active. As I had used switch cleaner on the connector, I assumed that the problem was just a poor electrical connection.

The car started and ran fine a couple more times, but shortly afterwards when driving it started misfiring again. When I plugged my computer into the car, the same fault code was present. I tried taking the car for a short test drive to see if this was a loose connection or broken wire that would intermittently work in response to vibration, but the fault remained. I tried disconnecting the battery for a short period of time to see if this was somehow resetting the IDM, but this made no difference. I disconnected the IDM, gave the contacts a very thorough cleaning and the car started and ran fine.

The car was fine for a couple of days, but then when driving the same fault reappeared. As I still had the original IDM, I was able to solder two wires to the PCB to check the wiring through the IDM connector to see if this was the problem. I was able to see the injector coil resistance through the wiring and was unable to break the continuity by apply pressure anywhere on the wiring harness or connectors. I also tried applying pressure to the wiring harness and connectors with the new IDM connected and the engine running, but was not able to recreate the fault. The same fault has occurred a fourth time, which was immediately rectified by disconnecting and reconnecting the IDM.

Mark

[dvbone]

I just had same kind of a problem and the cause was particles in injectors never found where they was from?? but now everything works well...

[zion2528]

High pressure pump is probably failing and dumping fine metal particles to the rail / injectors.

[dannyuk89]

Hi,

I've got an 02 Mondeo TDCi 130PS that won't start, but will run while Easy Start is sprayed into the intake manifold.

I've checked for debris in the fuel filter and there is none. When I monitor the fuel rail pressure when turning over this registers around 40,000 kPa. So I'm fairly confident the pump is ok.

I'm not getting any actuation signal to the fuel injectors. All the sensors check out as fine, and as there were no DTC's I thought the problem could be the injector driver module (the Delphi ECU under the n/s wing). I've got hold of a used IDM, but I'm still getting the same problem.

I'm running out of ideas. Has anyone got any suggestions for what to try next?:giveup:

Mark
ive had a couple of ecu repairs on the pump ecu on the focus

[mark_leics]

I just had same kind of a problem and the cause was particles in injectors never found where they was from?? but now everything works well...

It came up as a fault in the injector electrical circuit from particles in the fuel system?

[zion2528]

I believe 250 bar is quite low...... could be a bad pump.

[nicamarcos]

ive had a couple of ecu repairs on the pump ecu on the focus

Here we are talking about C.R system not VP pumps.!!!!!

[Ashraf6119]

Hi mark_leics

have you tried to swap the Injector #2 to any other cylinder and see if fault goes to that cylinder.

It could be the Injector is faulty, The injectors you replace were they New or, Used Second hand once ?


Ash

[Poptest]

Hello Mark_Leics.......... Is your problem solved?

[number-one]

we are disscussing 2 differant systems and 2 components here.

the mercedes you refer to has a bosch cp1 common rail system, it has on the fuel rail 2 components, 1x fuel pressure sensor(no seals), and 1x fuel pressure regulator. the regulator has the seals you refer to and is a common problem for bad or no start.

this mondeo has a Delphi common rail system.
on the fuel rail is 1 componant, 1x fuel pressure sensor. (no seals)

both delphi and bosch use an actuator to control fuel pressure, but in differant ways.
bosch use the fuel pressure regulator either on the rail (merc) or on the pump. this controls pressure by dumping the high pressure within the pump back to the tank via a fuel cooler.

Delphi use an IMV (inlet metering valve) on the pump itself.
This IMV controls fuel on the low pressure side of the pump (fuel from the internal vane pump to the high pressure side)
so the seals on this IMV do not burst like the bosch ones.

not trying to cause a fight just trying to clear up the confusion.

Regards

Do you have any picture of this IMV (inlet metering valve)?


Thanks.

[ziggystardust]

Sorry about the late reply, but like a lot of people I was unable access The Garage whilst the changes were being made.

The car started with the replacement injectors, so you were right on the money Ash, thanks. :D I have now got an intermittent electrical fault, which I think is the injector driver module, but I am waiting for a replacement from the original supplier. The full description of what's now happening is a bit long winded, but I've put it below in italics if anyone is interested.

The car started and ran a couple of times no problems, but on the third time started misfiring and with fault code P0202 (cylinder 2 injector electrical circuit). I checked the injector coil resistance, which was fine as was the wiring harness back to the IDM connector. I cleaned the the IDM connector with switch connector, reconnected it and the car started and ran on 4 cylinders, which the fault code still present in memory but not active. As I had used switch cleaner on the connector, I assumed that the problem was just a poor electrical connection.

The car started and ran fine a couple more times, but shortly afterwards when driving it started misfiring again. When I plugged my computer into the car, the same fault code was present. I tried taking the car for a short test drive to see if this was a loose connection or broken wire that would intermittently work in response to vibration, but the fault remained. I tried disconnecting the battery for a short period of time to see if this was somehow resetting the IDM, but this made no difference. I disconnected the IDM, gave the contacts a very thorough cleaning and the car started and ran fine.

The car was fine for a couple of days, but then when driving the same fault reappeared. As I still had the original IDM, I was able to solder two wires to the PCB to check the wiring through the IDM connector to see if this was the problem. I was able to see the injector coil resistance through the wiring and was unable to break the continuity by apply pressure anywhere on the wiring harness or connectors. I also tried applying pressure to the wiring harness and connectors with the new IDM connected and the engine running, but was not able to recreate the fault. The same fault has occurred a fourth time, which was immediately rectified by disconnecting and reconnecting the IDM.

Mark
2 be something wrong with the fuel or correct me if i'm wrong ?

[ziggystardust]

fault comes back with new part's i'll should drain the fuel-tank and change the fuel-filter , if the problem restain go for the pump as sugested before in the tread .
(If there's no solution on the problem tow the car to nearest bad neigbourhod and maybee it will disapear)

[PierreTheron]

fault comes back with new part's i'll should drain the fuel-tank and change the fuel-filter , if the problem restain go for the pump as sugested before in the tread .
(If there's no solution on the problem tow the car to nearest bad neigbourhod and maybee it will disapear)

Hi

Know this is old post.

Did you get this solved?

Thanks

Pierre