BMW 850i V-12 1427684 M52 CHK:F8B5 BOSCH 87BC60Q 0261203473 1267358770

[ethanw]

Where can I find the ORIG file or how can I download mine from my car?

Thanks much

[ethanw]

Anyone with this ORIG?

[jovime]

I think you'll have to take the ECU out and desolder, or perhaps it has a socket.

[ethanw]

Is there a way I can read the ecu without desoldering it from the board? Some kind of adaptor that goes on top of it and touches all the pins so I can red it, or just read it in Circuit?

With something like this maybe? Can be read in circuit?

http://media.digikey.com/photos/3M%20Photos/923675-84.jpg


I think you'll have to take the ECU out and desolder, or perhaps it has a socket.

[filecloud]

Is there a way I can read the ecu without desoldering it from the board? Some kind of adaptor that goes on top of it and touches all the pins so I can red it, or just read it in Circuit?

With something like this maybe? Can be read in circuit?

http://media.digikey.com/photos/3M%20Photos/923675-84.jpg

Hello
Even with this it is useless. Let me paint it very black:
1) You will find out that no programmer can handle the 87M12, 87BC, or cc460 chip except the old evc one (dis****inued long ago), or the original ETAS programmer.
2) Your chip is OTP and there is no spare one to buy and no replacement except you use 2 very expensive key730 modules from evc for each of your two ecus.
3) The interesting thing, the speed limiter, sits in the third ecu which does the throttle body. Open it and find another two obsolete plcc32 otp special chips which you cannot buy anymore.
4) Even if you take that you may find out that no free checksum tool will handle the throttle body ecu software. Make one mistake and you fry all three ecus forever.
If you check prices for these ecus you can count around 6000 euro. But again they are out of stock at BMW.
Summary: Make one small mistake and you can burn the complete car.
Greetings,
Don Pedro

[ethanw]

Thanks Don Pedro :) You just ruined my day. I am kidding.... Well bad news is bad news what can I do....

Here is what I would like to do... I will desolder the two OTP ecu's from my existing DME's. I really need that original.
I have another set of DME's that I can replace the ecu with the key730 from evc. And now I have a read/write setup correct?
I now can edit my original bin to customize my map points for the Super Charger and I am done.....
Does it sound right :) No more bad news please :)
Is there a way I could get the ecu ORIG for a 97 M73 BMW 850ci? So maybe I don't have to mess with my original DME's and desolder the ecu's so I can read the originals.

And lastly, now I have to attack the third ecu as well? The third ecu does the throttle body? I may need to change this one as well for SC project. Crap....

Thanks much guys, you're really helping me a LOT....


Hello
Even with this it is useless. Let me paint it very black:
1) You will find out that no programmer can handle the 87M12, 87BC, or cc460 chip except the old evc one (dis****inued long ago), or the original ETAS programmer.
2) Your chip is OTP and there is no spare one to buy and no replacement except you use 2 very expensive key730 modules from evc for each of your two ecus.
3) The interesting thing, the speed limiter, sits in the third ecu which does the throttle body. Open it and find another two obsolete plcc32 otp special chips which you cannot buy anymore.
4) Even if you take that you may find out that no free checksum tool will handle the throttle body ecu software. Make one mistake and you fry all three ecus forever.
If you check prices for these ecus you can count around 6000 euro. But again they are out of stock at BMW.
Summary: Make one small mistake and you can burn the complete car.
Greetings,
Don Pedro

[oldford]

As far as I know the 2 DME's are exactly equal.
I have never read the M5.2, but with the older M1.7 that was the case.
The third ecu is an EML and pretty expensive.
See: RealOEM.com BMW E31 850Ci CONTROL UNIT EML (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EG43&mospid=47337&btnr=12_0350&hg=12&fg=10)
I doubt if there's a lot of knowledge around for this type of ecu.

Would it not be easier to replace the bmw ecu's by 1 aftermarket programmable ecu? Of course that means a lot of changes, but at least then you can make the setup with a laptop.

[ethanw]

Thanks oldford.. Yes indeed the older ODB-I M1.7 is piece of cake comparing with M5.2. The 3 X ecu's in M1.7 are socket based and easy to pull out, read/write with any Wiliem programmer.

MY 850 is the later one which is the ODB-II and you're right I may need to go with a separate engine management system. I want to keep it as stock as possible and I don't wanna start chopping the wiring harness.

Any idea in a good non-intrusive engine management system for this V12 beast?

Thanks again



As far as I know the 2 DME's are exactly equal.
I have never read the M5.2, but with the older M1.7 that was the case.
The third ecu is an EML and pretty expensive.
See: RealOEM.com BMW E31 850Ci CONTROL UNIT EML (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=EG43&mospid=47337&btnr=12_0350&hg=12&fg=10)
I doubt if there's a lot of knowledge around for this type of ecu.

Would it not be easier to replace the bmw ecu's by 1 aftermarket programmable ecu? Of course that means a lot of changes, but at least then you can make the setup with a laptop.

[oldford]

I am Europe-based, so I am no expert regarding your OBD2 laws.
I think officially for road use an aftermarket system is illegal. Simply because you can't read it with an OBD2 scanner. Everything sold always say: for off-road use only.
Whether or not adding a super-charger makes it illegal for road use I don't know.

Any aftermarket ecu would require it's own wiring loom. And because it's a twelve cylinder, you need a high-end (read expensive) ecu.

So, the first question is: must it still be OBD2 compliant?
When yes, I would say find someone to alter the M5.2 for you.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this engine has 2 airmass meters? One for each bank?
The intake normally is seperated, so if the EML decides to open or close the throttle on one bank that is seen by the airmass meter for that bank. How are you going to do that with a supercharger? Or are you going to use 2 small compressors?

[ethanw]

No need for two compressors. One will do just fine.... Someone already done it for the M70 V12 engine which is the younger brother, the ODB-I BMW 850i / M70 5.0L engine.
See attached link:
More pics of the installation and parts... - The BMW 8 Series (E31) Forum (http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bmw-8-series-e31/9156230-1.html)

The same kit will work mechanically perfect on the M73 /5.4L engine except the engine management part wich is ODB-II.
I need to keep the car ODB-II compliant....

The best nonintrusive way will be to find someone and a way to alter the M5.2. I rather put my money in that direction if is doable in any way or shape...

Any ideas how can I do this?

And see the V12 SC kit bellow. Is a worth of art and this guys is just a GENIUS....

http://www.bmw850.us/BMW-850i-SC-Kit.jpg


I am Europe-based, so I am no expert regarding your OBD2 laws.
I think officially for road use an aftermarket system is illegal. Simply because you can't read it with an OBD2 scanner. Everything sold always say: for off-road use only.
Whether or not adding a super-charger makes it illegal for road use I don't know.

Any aftermarket ecu would require it's own wiring loom. And because it's a twelve cylinder, you need a high-end (read expensive) ecu.

So, the first question is: must it still be OBD2 compliant?
When yes, I would say find someone to alter the M5.2 for you.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this engine has 2 airmass meters? One for each bank?
The intake normally is seperated, so if the EML decides to open or close the throttle on one bank that is seen by the airmass meter for that bank. How are you going to do that with a supercharger? Or are you going to use 2 small compressors?

[filecloud]

Hello
Sorry. But when i see this kit i must cry. That is no piece of art, it is only looking shiny because the flashlight of the camera reflects a bit.
1) Why is the company adding a new fuelpump, injectors but not offering a proper remap service? I know that out of 20 years experience: They cannot! Instead they will send the customer to a tuner who should "fix" it. Take the money and run is their motto.
2) The system is maf based as you found out but where are the bigger mafs that are obviously necessarry? They are missing because that would need a supplied remap.
3) Maf based, but they seem to use a cheap pop off solution? We all know what lambda adaptation is going to make on this car.
4) No throttle bypass system like on E55s, no boost control over egas like on the Alpina that have the trottle IN FRONT of the compressor to avoid useless pressure work agains throttle?
3) An albrex charger of this size used to support 5 liters? No oil cooling for the compressor lubrication? No run-free solution for the belt on a system with a planet geardrive of estimated 1:15?
4) A big intercooler to mount in front of the water cooler when this car stock is suffering from heat problems?

This may be enough for a fun quartermile car where noone cries when it explodes but not for street use!

One tip: Take the front off from an Alpina Kompressor car and study their solution. That is a piece of art! And it works like from hell!
Greetings,
filecloud

[filecloud]

Hello
Attached a file from a Alpina B6 4.4 V8V4 Kompressor with 500hp for everyone. Who wants can study the difference between an normal V8 with ME9 and this one.
Greetings,
filecloud

[oldford]

The kits you refer too are not supercharger kits, but twin turbo kits. With twin turbo's you can keep the inlet system separated, which in my opinion is a must with the standard ecu's. But that would need 2 (TWO) intercoolers.

A supercharger is driven by a belt from the crankshaft and usually sits on top of the engine. You may know it under the name Roots compressor.
This is a supercharger: Superchargers and Blowers roots centrifigul screw superchargers blower ? automotivesnews.com (http://automotivesnews.com/superchargers-blowers/roots_centrifigul_screw_superchargerswhipple_blowe r/)

I have to change my opinion on the M5.2's. They have to be different because the OBD2 rules require them to produce different Diagnostic Trouble Codes. The mapping of course will be the same on both sides.

I see a lot of problems here. The standard ecu's are not equipped to regulate turbo pressure. So you can only run low pressure.
You need to add intake air sensors in the pressurized part of the engine. Right now they are in the air mass sensors, which tells you nothing about the temperature after the intercoolers. You need that to adjust ignition timing when the intake temperature rizes.
Bigger injectors are a must, but I hope the EML will still work with the smaller times.
Of course you need bigger or more fuel pumps, and worst case maybe even bigger fuel lines.
What about the exhaust manifolds for the turbo? They are not shown on the picture.

Let me put it this way: I would not take this job when offered. For no amount of money.

[ethanw]

Guys don't get to hangup on the hardware. This kit is already installed and works very well on the M70 V12. See the dyno and the video link for the dyno. The guys offers a full kit with everything included such as the ECU chips and map points, but for the M70 ONLY. His SC is installed in about 10 850's and they're legally on the streets and no engines blown....

What I am trying to do is the take the same kit and put it on the M73 V12 which is bigger engine and the hardware will fit just fine. The challenge is around the M5.2 ECU since they're a different type.

I just need to be able to read/write on the M5.2 and he will do the map points as he did for the M70.... Makes sense?

Video here:
http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/MarcoDyno01.AVI

And Dyno. His power now is around 450HP after making adjustments to the pulley and some map points:
http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/MarcoDyno01a.JPG

[oldford]

Well, he has still some work to do on the mapping.
Especially between 3300 rpm and 5000 rpm.
There are a couple of big dips in his power output.

[ethanw]

Yes he does and is work in progress. Safely and incrementaly adding power to the V12 beast.

Now back to the original topic, would anyone take on the M5.2 project? I need the 2 DME's and EML in read/write mode, therefore replace the OTP with something that can be customized so we can do our map points.


Well, he has still some work to do on the mapping.
Especially between 3300 rpm and 5000 rpm.
There are a couple of big dips in his power output.

[filecloud]

Hello
I would not take it for money but i want to give some more advice.
You have not sent detailed info/pictures about your eml ecu yet. So no serious tuner can make you an offer so far. There are several different variants available and if you are unlucky you have the one where all checksum tools fail.
Anyways
You need 2 x evc key 730x to buy from a tuner which is around 130 Euro each plus shipping.
You need 2 x evc key 530x which are about 90 euro each plus shipping
You will be bound to the tuner where you buy these adapters since they do encrypt. There are no unencrypted adapters available and noone will give out his encryption key.
Next disadvantage is, that the eml ecu does not close any more after you have mounted the adapters. As far as i remember
Then you have the cost for the nasty desolder/socketing work plus backup from all eeproms (4 in total)

My tip is: Bring the car to the person who does the conversions and let him do the job complete.
Greetings,
filecloud

[ethanw]

Well I guess the intent for the evc key's are to protect the code, their code right? What if I just need their hardware as a read/write device but the code developed is mine. Why wouldn't they sale them to me blank or give me the key as a mechanism to read or write my own code. I will pay the same price.
I real need their device to replace the OTP's in my ECU's...

As for money that is not an issue since the this solution will be leveraged across all other kits that.
And in regards of your tip, I will do the install myself, the mechanical piece and I will try to solve the engine management portion as well. As I said before the guy with the kit only does it on M70 where mine is M73 is very experimental.





Hello
I would not take it for money but i want to give some more advice.
You have not sent detailed info/pictures about your eml ecu yet. So no serious tuner can make you an offer so far. There are several different variants available and if you are unlucky you have the one where all checksum tools fail.
Anyways
You need 2 x evc key 730x to buy from a tuner which is around 130 Euro each plus shipping.
You need 2 x evc key 530x which are about 90 euro each plus shipping
You will be bound to the tuner where you buy these adapters since they do encrypt. There are no unencrypted adapters available and noone will give out his encryption key.
Next disadvantage is, that the eml ecu does not close any more after you have mounted the adapters. As far as i remember
Then you have the cost for the nasty desolder/socketing work plus backup from all eeproms (4 in total)

My tip is: Bring the car to the person who does the conversions and let him do the job complete.
Greetings,
filecloud

[filecloud]

Hello
No, EVC sell the devices coded with the key belonging to the special tuner who orders. It does only protect the tuners mapping. EVC does not do tuning.
So if you want to do it on your own you have to have an official tuning company registered to your name, phone evc, get aprooved and registered as a customer. Then for some hundred bucks you get your own encryption key created and they send you the software and the devices for you to play with.
And if money does not matter it is a good tip to buy the winols software and the necessarry checksums as well. Winols does the import/export with your key automatic and it is the best software available by far.
Greetings,
Filecloud

[ethanw]

PERFECT and thanks so very much filecloud. This is the route I will be going and I don't mind paying the extra money since this solution will be replicated for more than my car, therefore we can recover our initial small investment.

I have the M73 2 X DME a 1 X EML in route to my garage and I will start taking those appart pretty soon to unsolder the OTP eproms and replace them with the Evo keys as soon as I make the transaction with them

Let the fun begin :)




Hello
No, EVC sell the devices coded with the key belonging to the special tuner who orders. It does only protect the tuners mapping. EVC does not do tuning.
So if you want to do it on your own you have to have an official tuning company registered to your name, phone evc, get aprooved and registered as a customer. Then for some hundred bucks you get your own encryption key created and they send you the software and the devices for you to play with.
And if money does not matter it is a good tip to buy the winols software and the necessarry checksums as well. Winols does the import/export with your key automatic and it is the best software available by far.
Greetings,
Don Pedro

[ethanw]

But then it hit me. How come Evo don't make an adapter for the 87M12 OTP eprom that I have in my DME's M5.2 but they have an adpter for the 87PC110 I have in the EML? They have the Key for the 87M12 OTP eprom but not adapter? The adpater is really what I need.

See attached link: Adapter EAD (http://www.evc.de/en/product/adapter_ead.asp)

[filecloud]

But then it hit me. How come Evo don't make an adapter for the 87M12 OTP eprom that I have in my DME's M5.2 but they have an adpter for the 87PC110 I have in the EML? They have the Key for the 87M12 OTP eprom but not adapter? The adpater is really what I need.

See attached link: Adapter EAD (http://www.evc.de/en/product/adapter_ead.asp)

I know.
They do not make one so you have to use an encryption socket. Simple as that. An ead for the plcc68 never existed. Check the design for the 87PC110 EAD and key also. They are differrent. One uses a flash plcc32 as replacement the other two big DIL28. Measure carefully if two ead would fit since the pc110 sit very close as i remember!
Good luck,
filecloud

[ethanw]

Thanks, it all makes sense now. So do you thing the Key 730x will have the same functionality as the original 87M12 OTP eprom in the DME M5.2 and same for the EML eprom with the Key 530X ? I am sure those eproms have some kind of algorithm / brain and I wonder if the replacement EVO keys will provide the same functionality.



I know.
They do not make one so you have to use an encryption socket. Simple as that. An ead for the plcc68 never existed. Check the design for the 87PC110 EAD and key also. They are differrent. One uses a flash plcc32 as replacement the other two big DIL28. Measure carefully if two ead would fit since the pc110 sit very close as i remember!
Good luck,
filecloud

[filecloud]

Hello
I showed you the way and gave my tips. I obviously have to tell everything twice before you believe my experience. It makes no sense to discuss it to death in theory.
Now its up to you to buy the stuff and learn the hard way yourself. No risk no fun. You want to do it? So do it. You have the car and i hope you will let us know.
Greetings,
filecloud

I know i repeat myself. Make backups of all eeproms from the ecus and eml or the car is doomed to death! And do not try to read/write the eml eeproms in-circuit. Beeprog+adapter ist the way to go.

[cardiagnostic]

Very funny project :D

[ilde20]

hi just want to know
if the evc stings was successful I havea bw m73 whit asupercharger added