Peugeot 308 VCT Related fault

[enginetrouble]

Hi All,
trying to get some opinions on this fault, I have posted in other forums, so you may see this post somewhere else...

Having a bit of a problem with a Peugeot 308 MY 2008 petrol Prince engine EP6C and would appreciate your view and advice.
The fault I?m getting is:
P0014 Exhaust Camshaft Phasing Coherence Permanent.
The vehicle starts but after it warms up it runs really rough. actually now it runs rough from cold.
All the info I read, points to the VCT solenoid that controls the Exhaust Camshaft timing being faulty, so I fitted a new one but it made absolutely no difference. Then I thought maybe the camshaft sensor for the Exhaust camshaft is faulty so I fitted a new one of those too, no change whatsoever.
After looking for a bit more info online, it is obvious that this fault can have a multitude of causes, from wrong oil, to VCT mechanism fault. This is a pain as I don?t really know the history of the vehicle...
I decided at this point to scope the signals to the VCT, links for the pictures bellow:
At Startup
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxOUleklqyzXbEVPSmMxMWtuZFNibk1MMzBqOEFIRmVsbktv/view?usp=sharing
At Idle
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxOUleklqyzXaVlsWjlGRGJsWU4wVHNxdkFPdkxYOHZUdWFB/view?usp=sharing
at high revs
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxOUleklqyzXOHV3Q0dJTEtmTlFldnkwbldtMDVFVUVyQXdj/view?usp=sharing

Scope traces for the Exhaust Camshaft sensor:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxOUleklqyzXWTlrYVpyWG1Qb0E/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxOUleklqyzXTnZxREhkT2RMTTA/view?usp=sharing
The strange part was that I managed to get the vehicle to run a couple of times well, not sure how but it did and the scope traces are the result. Please bear in mind that the waveforms are inverted.
On normal engine run, when the engine starts, the solenoid is at rest and the ECU is commanding it to start at around 10% duty cycle, then immediately the ECU varies the Duty cycle to around 50% and it stays like that at idle. As soon as I rev the engine the ECU commands the Solenoid to move from 50% up to around 90% duty cycle.
When not running correctly, the ECU is keeping the VCT solenoid signal always at start up position.
Armed with this info, I decided to try to prove that the VCT solenoid/oil/cam mechanism was working correctly. I measured both the new and old VCT?s internal resistance which was around 8 ohms and fitted a resistor of the same value in the connector coming from the ECU. This way the ECU will think that the Solenoid is still connected and not come up with another fault.
I then, using an Arduino board with a motor control shield, built a rig to drive the solenoid independently with the same voltage/current and the right duty cycle. This actually worked very well!
I started the vehicle and it was running rough, I then commanded, using my rig, the VCT solenoid to move to around 60% duty cycle and immediately the engine got the revs slightly higher and it run perfectly. Even when I rev it up, it was fine, not sure about efficiency and emissions, but it run fine.

Now, at this point I was expecting the ECU, as it is seeing the solenoid move independently of its control, would try to control but the ECU trace on the dummy solenoid never changed.

My understanding of the fault reported by the ECU is that when trying to control the VCT solenoid to a certain position, the camshaft sensor signal is not as expected. I think it is most likely comparing that signal with the crankshaft sensor signal to get the phase angle that the camshaft moved to but somehow it is not correct. Please correct me if I?m wrong.

I was a bit surprised with the camshaft sensor signal (see waveforms above). I was expecting a regular square wave signal, so at first I thought that was the problem, but after fitting a new sensor the signal was the same. I also scope the inlet camshaft sensor and the signal is similar so can only conclude that the signal is fine. It looks like some kind of PWM that in analogue terms with result in some sinusoidal signal. That sort of makes sense as it will help the ECU compare it with the crankshaft sensor signal.

I am heading for a diagnosis of a faulty ECU, but I am still not convinced? I am going back to the vehicle and scope the crankshaft sensor and compare it to the camshaft sensor to see if I can see anything unusual.

I would like to discount the ECU fault by completely clone the ECU to another used one. Unfortunately this vehicle is using the Bosch MEV17.4 ECU, which I have no kit to clone it with. I have a couple of programmers UPA, XProg and the FGTECH GALLETTO V54 but looking at info online this ECU has boot option disabled at the factory. If someone as a solution for this, it would be great. If it is possible to code a used ECU to the vehicle I would also be interested, I do have PP2000.
ECU:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxOUleklqyzXYmprWmgtUUZLX0U/view?usp=sharing

If any of you have any other ideas or suggestions for fault finding, it would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[simaservis1108]

I had a problem like that on this car,it was a suspected ECU fault.
It was a fault in the camshaft axial tolerances,causing the ECU to think the car is not timed correctly.
Owned changed the top engine part,engine head,and all was resolved.

Regards,
Sima

[Zmann]

Have no any other suggestion but to say that the ECU is simply cloneable by FGT v54 via CAN lines and boot mode. If need pinout I or members can upload the images. But suggestion from simaservis is meaningful!

[enginetrouble]

Have no any other suggestion but to say that the ECU is simply cloneable by FGT v54 via CAN lines and boot mode. If need pinout I or members can upload the images. But suggestion from simaservis is meaningful!

I did find something on the forum for it, may give it a go...

394464

I am not very convinced about the ECU issue, hence would like to get a second one, clone it and once and for all get that out of the way.
What I don't want to do is send the ECU to be tested and repaired for ?250 upwards and find out that was nothing wrong with it.
The option of getting a second hand one (~?100) and clone it seems like a better option.
Thank you.
Best Regards
Luis

[enginetrouble]

I had a problem like that on this car,it was a suspected ECU fault.
It was a fault in the camshaft axial tolerances,causing the ECU to think the car is not timed correctly.
Owned changed the top engine part,engine head,and all was resolved.

Regards,
Sima

Hi Sima,
that seems a route to explore, do you think there is anyway of confirming that the tolerances are the fault, any testing i can do?
It seems to me that, if I can clone the ecu and test that first, that would be cheaper.
I do actually think that this is more likely to be the fault than the ECU, but changing the engine head is a more difficult/more expensive route at the moment...
I will see if I can find some more info relating to the camshaft axial tolerances, but for now I haven't found a thing.
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[ammarben]

try to clean the VCT solenoid that controls the Exhaust Camshaft timing

[rideon]

1 Read posts no 2/3and 6
2 Check oil pressure
3 Use Thanks button

[enginetrouble]

try to clean the VCT solenoid that controls the Exhaust Camshaft timing

Hi,
A new VCT was fitted as part of the tests I have done.
Thnak you.
Best Regards
ET

[enginetrouble]

1 Read posts no 2/3and 6
2 Check oil pressure
3 Use Thanks button

Hi,
Will check oil pressure, but if it was out of spec, you would think I would get a fault code for that...
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[chacarita]

Hi i could heplyou, post youre vin number , if i undertand well you have a synchro problem, did you check timing?, sometimes there are some chasin stretch. anyway sendme vin so i can check in service box

[autoden]

Where are you connected for reading with scope? Are you at the ECU or sensor end? You need to know what the ECU is seeing. If any doubt, send the ECU for test and repair. Lots of them on the web.
autoden

[alessioblaupunkt]

Stop mister.
This is a THP engine. Full of problems, made by BMW that denied to be recalled.
There are similars post about those Pug, have a look at'em:

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/showthread.php/470069-PEUGEOT-5008?highlight=5008

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/showthread.php/494505-Peugeot-308

[enginetrouble]

Hi i could heplyou, post youre vin number , if i undertand well you have a synchro problem, did you check timing?, sometimes there are some chasin stretch. anyway sendme vin so i can check in service box

Hi,
the VIN Number is VF34C5FWC55009158
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[enginetrouble]

Where are you connected for reading with scope? Are you at the ECU or sensor end? You need to know what the ECU is seeing. If any doubt, send the ECU for test and repair. Lots of them on the web.
autoden

Hi,
I'm connected at the Sensor end, but I have no reason to doubt that ECU is receiving the signal, all the wiring around the ECU seems good and if I disconnect the sensor all together the ECU comes up with a suitable fault for open circuit so seems to get the signal fine.
Indeed the repair is an option but at ?300 it is a bit steep hence I would like to explore any other possible fault before spending that money.
Best Regards
ET

[chacarita]

Hi,
the VIN Number is VF34C5FWC55009158
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET
I found something:
Reading the fault codes.
Check for the presence of swarf in the slide valve of the camshaft dephaser control solenoid valve.
Replacement of the camshaft dephaser control solenoid valve(s) (If necessary).
[FONT=&quot]Downloading of the engine management ECU software.
2.1. Parts required

Solenoid valve controlling the camshaft dephaser (Quantity depending on the result of the check) (Part No. depending on vehicle definition).
1 Oil filter (Part No. depending on vehicle definition).
1 Drain cap seal (Part No. depending on vehicle definition)
2.3. Reading the fault codes

ESSENTIAL : It is compulsory to carry out the diagnostics using the diagnostic tool in connected mode with compulsory authentication of the user - Fault finding mode and application of the "Technical Service Bulletin" process

Read the fault codes :

In the presence of one or more of the following fault code(s) P0011, P11A9, P0014, P11A8, P000A, P000B : Carry out the check + Download the engine management ECU software
If there are other fault codes : This information does not apply



2.4. Check

[COLOR=#000000]Remove the solenoid valve of the camshaft dephasers system concerned :



Inlet : P0011, P11A9, P000A
Exhaust : P0014, P11A8, P000B

[chacarita]

394917see the picture

[enginetrouble]

I found something:
Reading the fault codes.
Check for the presence of swarf in the slide valve of the camshaft dephaser control solenoid valve.
Replacement of the camshaft dephaser control solenoid valve(s) (If necessary).
[FONT=&quot]Downloading of the engine management ECU software.
2.1. Parts required

Solenoid valve controlling the camshaft dephaser (Quantity depending on the result of the check) (Part No. depending on vehicle definition).
1 Oil filter (Part No. depending on vehicle definition).
1 Drain cap seal (Part No. depending on vehicle definition)
2.3. Reading the fault codes

ESSENTIAL : It is compulsory to carry out the diagnostics using the diagnostic tool in connected mode with compulsory authentication of the user - Fault finding mode and application of the "Technical Service Bulletin" process

Read the fault codes :

In the presence of one or more of the following fault code(s) P0011, P11A9, P0014, P11A8, P000A, P000B : Carry out the check + Download the engine management ECU software
If there are other fault codes : This information does not apply



2.4. Check

[COLOR=#000000]Remove the solenoid valve of the camshaft dephasers system concerned :



Inlet : P0011, P11A9, P000A
Exhaust : P0014, P11A8, P000B



Hi Chacarita,
Thanks for looking this up for me.

We essentially done all this:
- Oil as been changed (right oil used following vehicle manual)
- Oil Filter changed.
- VCT valve checked, no debris or swarf found, nevertheless new valve was fitted to rule it out.
- We even fitted a new cam position sensor.

absolutely no effect, the fault still remains.

I can actually independently control the solenoid and get the engine running right.

Two things We haven't done:

- Change the ECU to rule out it being at fault.
- fit new timing chain.

After that it's anybody guess and based on the other posts about these engines this is going to be difficult.
No wander the Peugeot dealership said that they could not guaranty that they could fix the vehicle...

I believe that the ECU is fine, but I'm in the process of cloning it and change it just to rule it out.

I would be very interested on any info on how precisely does the ECU comes to the conclusion that there is a phase angle discrepancy Is it comparing the cam shaft sensor's output with the crankshaft sensor's signal? I may try to come up with a way of fooling the ECU by generating the camshaft sensor signal as I control the solenoid independently as a further test...

In the end the info given on another post that a new head may solve the problem may be the solution, but it will be an expensive one!

Is the timing chain stretch a feasible route to investigate?

Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[simaservis1108]

Your ECU has TriCore...Forget about cloning it...

[enginetrouble]

Your ECU has TriCore...Forget about cloning it...
Ok... the info is changing every day. I was under the impression that I could do it with Galletto, it does have the right micro on the menu in boot mode...
Best Regards
ET

[simaservis1108]

OTP area...

[enginetrouble]

OTP area...
I just seem to manage to upload the program from the ECU in boot mode, both the internal flash and the Eeprom. They both came up us unprotected.
I also verified that the program I downloaded to the cloned ECU was correct and they both match.
I also read the datasheet for the ucontroller and indeed it can be locked, but that option doesn't seem to be active.
Would be interesting to see the info you Base your statement, as I may be wrong.

Can anybody confirm that to clone the ECU I just need to download to the ECU the files for the internal flash and the Eeprom of the original ECU.
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[Zmann]

I insist my previous info stand correct!

Unnecessarily, all the devices which have Tricore embedded need to have OTP activated. The device makers can freely decide whether they want to use this feature or not. Your tool tells you the truth on this ECU.

[chacarita]

i thinck you need contact Peugeot dealer an say: i know there is a
Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) - VF34C5FWC55009158 number: B1HW011FQ0 : Versi?n 6 de 01/04/2015 ans this say:
1. ORIGIN
Engine management ECU software.
2. AFTER-SALES REPAIR
Reading of the fault codes.
Downloading engine management ECU.
Replacement of the valve lift actuator (if necessary).
2.1. Parts required

1 Valve lift actuator (Part No. depending on vehicle definition).

2.2. Fault code reading
Read the fault codes :

With or without presence of fault codes P1014, P1015, P101A, P101C, P101D, P1025, P1030, P1050 and/or P1062 : Apply this document
If there are other fault codes : Do not apply this document


2.3. Repairs

CAUTION : The diagnostic tool must be at the latest update version available on the server

Perform a downloading of the engine ECU :

If a software update is available : Download the latest engine management ECU software present on the after-sales server : Carry out a road test to confirm the repair
If no software update is available or if there is a recurrence after application of this information : Replace the valve lift actuator


2.4. Labour time

https://edocse-servicebox.peugeot.com/resources/4.21.11/images/Document/obook.gif
308 UNTIL RPO 12297 AND EP6 INJECTION
Reading of the fault codes + Downloading engine management ECU + Road test :

Invoicing time : 0,80H
Operation code : 99506A


Reading of the fault codes + Downloa

[chacarita]

i thinck the problem is you dont download new software fot the ecu, this its a upgrade for this code

[enginetrouble]

I understand what you are saying, but the vehicle was working before, so there must be something that changed. The only way I can see the new software solving the problem is if they opened the tolerances on the cam positioning versus what was requested.
I will ask my friend to call Peugeot and ask for that specific service bulletin and see what they say.
Thank you.
Best Regards
Luis

[chacarita]

its happen may times they put more tolerances ,the engine isnt the same in lab that in real street, lol, i dont se int his case ori file and compared with updtaed file, but i see that i other cases and there is a time filter to detect the dtc and i see somo mode ther to give mor time for diference between requested and and real

[rideon]

I understand what you are saying, but the vehicle was working before, so there must be something that changed

Now that is the proper way to approach a problem..
the only issue here is that the engine you are talking about was sh1ty from design stage then was passed to production(cheap)
And now ,end user should use it...:hmmmm2: for this to happen without added costs is much cheaper to throw a different software at it ..than a redesigned head...
Throwing new parts at it can solve the issue for now,new software will from now on..
Do you think that DTC OFF was invented by some tunner on DK? major manufacturers did that and are still doing it ....

[enginetrouble]

Now that is the proper way to approach a problem..
the only issue here is that the engine you are talking about was sh1ty from design stage then was passed to production(cheap)
And now ,end user should use it...:hmmmm2: for this to happen without added costs is much cheaper to throw a different software at it ..than a redesigned head...
Throwing new parts at it can solve the issue for now,new software will from now on..
Do you think that DTC OFF was invented by some tunner on DK? major manufacturers did that and are still doing it ....
Unfortunately I don't know of any way of updating the software apart from taking the car to peugeot, my friend was going to have a word with them still waiting to hear what they said...
Now this DTC off talk makes sense, I always wandered why people where asking for DTC off on the forum, and always tought, why don't they just clear the fault! Now I see what they mean.
Still don't understand the process, can you remove individual faults all together or it means that the MIL light will never come on?
Isn't this dangerous for the engine?
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET
Best Regards
Luis

[rideon]

Still don't understand the process, can you remove individual faults all together or it means that the MIL light will never come on?
Isn't this dangerous for the engine?
As a developer they can do whatever they want..

Petrol engines can run with one crankshaft sensor,4 injectors and 4 coils and maybe one MAP
Everything else is for de-pollution and/or power ...
So, anything like vvt systems/lambda/egr/evap/knock control.. can be "safely removed"

Independents tunners do whatever they can,with lots of research and educated guesses can erase on ecu some/part or all dtc table ...

[chacarita]

well isnt a good way to solve with DTC off like i see the things, update isnt a dtc off, for each code there are some things to thinck about it, if you have a decat exhaust ok good to be dtc off to remove dtc from cat, we are talking diferent things here, we are talking about how many time could be out of requested possition, maybe in origina file was program in limit by 5 mseg, and in a use engine cold be a little more so yes its a error program but dont fixit with dtc off you could be have a problem if timimg chain exced more tahn safty and if you have dtc off coul boke you engine, to resume dtc off its for some things not for all, its how i see .

[enginetrouble]

Is it possible to update the ecu, without peugeot subscription? I do have pp2000.
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[PartyTwist]

I have the same problem right now, anything came out of this?
The camshaft "rings"/seals were changed among other things, software updated at the stealer,... We're all out of ideas short of cloning the ECU too.