Help needed please

[DarrenMconville]

Hi if someone can recommend what key programmers and key cutting machine to buy as I want to start key cutting business I really appreciate it.
Thank you

[the_big_d]

Whats your budget? are you planning on doing lost key jobs or just spares?

[DarrenMconville]

Hi thank you for replying I would like to spend around £3000 Maybe more if needed on key programmer and key cutting.I want to start off doing spare keys then later on do lost keys as more equipment and cost will be needed.
Thank xou

[rapidlocksmiths]

Mate £3000 isnt going to buy you very much at all , its likely you will need far more than that in key stock alone . a reliable cut to code machine for key cutting is going to eat into your budget .

just to do spare keys , you need reliable key cutters , you need way more than 1 programmer , you will need a cloner and you will need key stock , chips etc .

for all keys lost add in cut to code machine , more programmers , eeprom kits , lishi tools , battery support unit , and more key stock.

and when you have invested 100k you still wont have full coverage.

you also need good insurance that covers you to work on motor vehicles, then allocate funds for advertising , accountant and business costs .

the first thing you need is research , then a workable business plan , identify which makes and models you hope to cover , then match equipment and stock for this coverage , if starting a business you always start with a business plan , what training you will need , what knowledge you need to learn , what insurances you need , this is what a business plan covers to see if viable , research competition and rates locally as time spent here saves tears later. its a business and must be treated as such , all this should be long before you even start to think about buying kit , at this point you dont even know if the work suits you .

its not unusual for an auto locksmith to have well over 100k invested , i have that in key stock alone , as where i am if i cant do the job same day i wont get the job .

[godfathertwo]

£3000 pound for automatic key cutting machine another 17000 for a basic package another 10 or 30 van stock plus etc etc another Dreamer .

[DarrenMconville]

Hi Thank you for explaining everything and that I need a business plan and will need to spend a hell off a lot more than I expected.I will start doing some research on what I want to do and get help putting a business plan together.In the mean time I would be grateful if you could recommend a code to key cutting machine and what programmers/Cloning machines/Eprom reader/writer is needed to cover all makes off vehicles.
Thank You for your time and explaining.
Kind regards
Darren

[DarrenMconville]

Hi thank you for replying I didn't think it would cost that much but I have acces to the funds needed.Could you please recommend a cut to code key cutting machine and send me a link for £17000 basic package please.
Kind regards
Darren

[rapidlocksmiths]

you ask for the programmers and eeprom kit for all makes and model of vehicle , sorry but this does not exist , even with 200k invested you will never have full coverage , many vehicles are still main dealership only . this alone suggests your green with little idea on the market you hope to start a business in , you will never cover all makes ever , and if you have no knowledge of mercedes , vag , bmw etc then leave them alone until you get experience .

all makes or even 90% of cars ;

1) what experience do you have working with vehicles , in particular working on immobiliser and ignition systems ?
2) what knowledge do you have of the various systems , how they work , what can brick them and which have issues ?
3) what training have you undrtaken , what study have you done , and does it relate to experience you have from other work ?
4) what experience do you have of using diagnostic kit on vehicles ?
5) what experience do you have of removing ecu and clusters , stripping them and soldering ?
6) what experience do you have of vehicle electrics and electronics ?

if none and starting from scratch then 1st step is to get training , the more experience you already have the easier it will be.

if wanting to cover as near to all makes as you can

cheap cut to code machine probably xhorse as a starter machine at around £2700, though i prefer quality like keyline ninja laser or silca futura pro at nearer £8k , but you will need a manual machine for laser keys , edge keys and tibbe too another 2k .
programmers , abrites ( fully loaded 39k) , smart pro , zedfull , autel im508 , autohex , vag tacho will give you around 85% programming coverage but worth having lonsdor and obdstar too as all bring something to the arsenal, however without knowledge this drops to 60%
eeprom , orange 5 , tango , tmpro vvdi prog will get you started
cloners silca rw5 , keydiy , xhorse keytool .

alot also depends where you are , for instance europe and usa are very different for tool requirements and models seen as very different markets and usa is easier for obtaining codes .

but even with all the kit , without knowledge of the systems you work on and the kit you use and what its doing you will brick vehicles so good insurance is a must dont skimp on this as you want good insurance as 1 bricked car will cost from £1k to £3k to fix if you cant do this yourself , delers will have your pants down.

perhaps its best to start with what you already know and what experience you have already , where in the world you are and realisticly where you want to start , all makes is not achievable for you .

have you looked at what you will need to charge , this is where most mess up , when first starting you will be lucky to get 10 jobs a week , so with this in mind lets say your weekly costs are ;

business expenses ie the cost to run a business , advertising , admin , insurances , professional fees , fuel and running costs of vehicle etc , lets say £200 a week
your wage lets say you need a wage of £400 a week
an amount to recoup your investment lets say £50 a week
an amount for ongoing investment in new coverage and kit £50 a week

so just these conservative costs as will be more , come to £700 a week
so if getting just 10 jobs a week to break even and get a wage you must charge £70 per job , plus parts plus taxes as a minimum.

this maths is essential to running a business , without it you often dont realise your on a hill to ruin till its too late. everyones maths are different as we all have different costs and different work volumes.

then do you want to be an auto locksmith doing the job properly or a messer knocking out lowball cheap keys on low end jobs , just cloning and doing simple jobs .

my advice is do your research fully , form a viable business plan , get training , research your area and start at the begining and build firm foundations to build on as weak foundations lead to collapse , walk dont run or you will be another of the many casualties we see each year of new starts with rose coloured specs on and no idea of the reality . you wont hit the ground running , it will take many years and alot of investment to even reach a competent level .

[Spiritech]

Rapid has as usual covered most of the points very well.

100K+ is a minimum investment for auto keys these days if you want to be doing 'all makes and models'. Even then there are some cars that just cannot be done outside of a dealer right now.

I set myself up recently, and it was 80k just in tools alone. Not including vehicle, stock, insurance(vehicle, professional services), accounting software, subscriptions for programmers and technical documentation. And this was with nearly 15 years of knowledge from working for someone else to inform me on what was needed, what stock sells fast, and most importantly how to do the jobs and how to fix it when it goes wrong.

I would suggest Darren that you first go and do some research on what the common vehicles are you might see in your market, the easiest way to do this would be to go down to a few local shopping centres and take note of year make and model of what's in the carpark/on the street. This will give you an idea of where to focus your efforts first, it's worthless tooling up for Benz or VW if all you see are Opels and Volvos. Once you have an idea of what vehicles you will be working on, then seek training or technical documentation on how those cars work, what key blanks and transponders they use, and most importantly how to fix it if it all goes tits up. Some of that information you might find here using the search function.

If you are doing this blind the most important thing you need is training and information, this is a very, very complex industry that people like us make look very easy from the outside. If you select incorrect systems you may damage cars, if you can't fix it you'll have to find someone to fix it for you and that's money down the drain. If you use incorrect transponders or keys you may use up tokens without actually programming a key, that's money down the drain. If you use poor quality keys or parts and they break or cease functioning properly, you'll be doing excessive warranty work and that's money down the drain.

[rapidlocksmiths]

as you will read , its not just a matter of buy a tool and your off and running, as you will find , one of worst feelings is having a working car brick and become a dead car compounded by what it can cost to fix if you dont know how.

it may be an idea to explain more about you , your background experience and location in the world this way you will get more relevent answers and more accurate advice , as the job differs continent to continent, what relevent experience you have for instance vehicle tech , auto electrics , tuning, electronics work etc , as many skills from these sectors are needed too , its not just cutting keys , the more relevent experience you have the easier your path will be, the less you have then the tougher it becomes.

[DarrenMconville]

Thank you very much for taking time out to explaining everything thoroughly really appreciate your expertise and knowledge.I will have a think about it as it involves a lot more than I expected and investment.
Kind regards
Darren

[DarrenMconville]

Hi thank you for your help I didn't know so much investment was needed so might have to get a partner involved to help with finance and sometimes two brains are better than one.You have give some good extra pointers and really appreciate it thank you for your time and help.
Kind regards
Darren

[DarrenMconville]

Hi yes thank you for replying and taking time out.I am a cab driver in Birmingham UK and experience I have which might help is I can solder, desolder,I can remove eeproms and have programmed them before,I have basic electronic knowledge,I have a basice lock pick set which I have used and know how to pick a lock with a tensioner,reading information from obd port as I have a diagnostics tool but I am a fast learner.Is there any courses or online documentation you would recommend?
Kind regards
Darren

[rapidlocksmiths]

Well you are in a tough area to establish yourself in , theres an awful lot of people offering car keys in birmingham and surrounding areas , facebook market place is full of them , most are bottom feeders with cheap cinese kit and keys , here today gone tomorrow , as one leaves 2 more start up , though the market is flooded everywhere in uk .

training is generally very poor with options being limited , hickleys offer a 10 day course , trouble is you cant learn a trade in 10 days , all courses offer just the very basics of picking and decoding and programming training is usually limited to what the training outfit wants to sell you kit wise , you leave a course thinking you know but actually know very little , this doesnt become obvious until you get on the road doing it , support is generally poor . you are very much on your own and it takes dedicated practice and study to get on , you go as far as you can be bothered to , the more you put in the more you learn , i spent years in scrap yards , buying ecu's and buying old cars to practice on . training will point you in the right direction but its up to you to develop and grow it. i still put in many hours on the bench practice time and time to understand new challenges .

the job has got easier which is why so many buy cheap kit press a few buttons and have a go , these dont last , many watch you tube videos and join forums , attend trade shows and read , these fair better , some get stuck in and put themselves out to learn on bench and in breakers yards and on their own cars , these tend to get on.

realisticly if setting up a business , do not expect to earn a wage in the first few years , every penny will go back into new kit and tech as well as stock , the kit you buy today will be outdated in 5 years , the kit that is still current will cost you in tokens or update fees to keep it current.

its a great trade and it can be lucrative , but you dont make the money on the jobs every new start can do , you need to be able to do what they cant , things change every year , new cars come out and new locks , new systems and new challenges requiring new investment in the new tools , tech and stock , its never ending , its one of most expensive areas you can choose to enter though is fascinating and interesting as its always changing offering fresh challenges , i love the trade and the job , yet ive pushed all 6 of my kids down different roads with a future.

i wish you best of luck , its going to be a steep learning curve and a hard road ahead , worth it if you make it , though most wont , in my area i see around 20 new starts a year of which most are not there a year later , those that are have worked hard to stay there.

[wuza]

There are few similar topics here on DK forum.
Just read them and you will get few ideas.

I would recommend you to get one manual and one automatic key cutting machine.
Xhorse has good offer on these.
They have batteries inside and they are mobile so you can put them in the car.

For key programming you have to decide which vehicles you want to do.
After that you need to know what kind of equipment you would like to have.
Some of tools are based on tables and some on laptops.
After some time you will have both of them (I recommend it).

I would recommend you to buy new stuff and not used, because if something happens you have at least support for it.
Clone tools I would not recommend it since they fail… not always, but happens.

[rapidlocksmiths]

hi

asking a general question as you have regarding all makes of vehicle you are going to get answers that will advise an array of equipment , id advise lowering your expections on coverage initially , work out the most common vehicles you will see then match kit to initial needs .

for instance alot of the kit people will advise for wide coverage you will struggle on some makes like vag , for vag ( vw , seat , skoda , audi ) most general kits struggle , for these kit like abrites with vag licences or VVdi 2 with full vag is advised to maximise coverage , also for vag its worth having vag tacho as nothing is better on MM clusters as well as older models .

for bmw autehex is best option followed by abrites and vvdi bmw .

for mercedes abrites , extreme mb tool , autel , vvdi mb tool are good choices

general tools for a wide coverage would be ;

token based tools smart pro or zedfull , eventually both .

non token based tools abrites especially for psa , renault and fca and maybe truecode online which is low annual fee for a wide coverage , im508 also useful.

chinese tools the better ones are autel im508 / im608 , lonsdor K518ise , obdstar dp+

for cloners keydiy and xhorse key tools will offer cloning but a long wait on some where as silca rw4 plus or rw5 is far faster but extortionate chip prices.

for cutting machines a cheap china machine will get you started but they are not lifetime machines , for lifetime machines you need silca or keyline .

depends if setting up on cheap or setting up for long term and what coverage you need , buying cheap means if you make it you will need at some point to buy again.

eeprom , vvdi prog or orange 5 , for dump tools tmpro , tango etc will do the job.

then tools like cgdi and acdp from china bring plenty to the party especially if wanting to work on mercedes , bmw and JLR .

but what tools from all the above you need depends on your coverage needs and the most common vehicles you will see , identify the coverage needed and match to this.

then bear in mind you can kill a car by pressing the wrong button , or making a mistake , reading this forum can help id the makes that cause issues , only a fool plugs in without knowing what the tool is doing and what can go wrong , mistakes happen so good solid insurances is a must as just 1 bricked car can finish a new start.

everyone considering setting up in car keys wants to know the cheapest tools that will give them full coverage on ALL MAKES AND MODELS , unrealistic as not even with all the best tools can you get 100% coverage.then you get those that are only interested in doing the top end vehicles like bmw , mercedes and vag on a budget , recipe for pain.

all potential new starts think that all there is to being an auto locksmith is to buy a few tools and there off and running , they dont even consider that theres a large element of skill and knowledge required too to do these jobs , which is why there are so many desperate messers trading and giving the trade a bad name , theres far more to it than buy some tools and press some buttons , this is how cars get bricked.

even with all the tools without system knowledge , vehicle specific knowledge and key knowledge and skills you will risk issues on cars , knowledge is essential.

alot neglect stock , without stock in your area you wont work , if you dont have the stock to do the job same day then umpteen others will have stock and can do today so will get the jobs.

[rapidlocksmiths]

also buying instacode software is a good buy

as said good luck , its a tough trade to succeed in , enter it with eyes wide open and with realistic expectations

[wuza]

@DarrenMconville
College rapidlocksmiths has gave you a lot of information about tools which are used in this job.
So big thanks from my side.
Only advice that I give you is to read posts 16 and 17 from rapidlocksmiths.
Don’t read the posts just 2-3 times, read them 15-20 times. It can only help you…
Good luck from my side as well.

[DarrenMconville]

Thank you for all your help and time explaining everything.
kind regards
Darren
also buying instacode software is a good buy

as said good luck , its a tough trade to succeed in , enter it with eyes wide open and with realistic expectations