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Doug__las
6th May, 2010, 01:40 AM
The truck is a 2006 Ford F750 with a Cummins 5.9 liter ISB CM850 with EGR. The unit was in the shop, a month ago, with a failed injector. The owner called and said the engine had some how filled with fuel and sped up over its governed setting and would not shut down with the key. After removing the valve cover, I found the #6 air intake valve broken, both tubes were bent and the injector tip was damaged, probably from the broken valve bouncing around above the piston. The air intake side of the turbo was dry and the exhaust side was wet with fuel. There is no sign of damage to the turbo. My biggest concern is, am I going to find what caused the failure when I remove the head? I can't put it back on the road until I know. I know there is many expert mechanics on this site and thought I would have more success here then any other place. Maybe this is a common problem with these units. Thanks for reading this and many thanks for suggestions.

joshplainfield
6th May, 2010, 02:21 AM
The truck is a 2006 Ford F750 with a Cummins 5.9 liter ISB CM850 with EGR. The unit was in the shop, a month ago, with a failed injector. The owner called and said the engine had some how filled with fuel and sped up over its governed setting and would not shut down with the key. After removing the valve cover, I found the #6 air intake valve broken, both tubes were bent and the injector tip was damaged, probably from the broken valve bouncing around above the piston. The air intake side of the turbo was dry and the exhaust side was wet with fuel. There is no sign of damage to the turbo. My biggest concern is, am I going to find what caused the failure when I remove the head? I can't put it back on the road until I know. I know there is many expert mechanics on this site and thought I would have more success here then any other place. Maybe this is a common problem with these units. Thanks for reading this and many thanks for suggestions.

hi there, I work on trucks and have experiance with the cummins diesel.

have you joined www.iatn.net (http://www.iatn.net)? its free and you can ask the same question on their forums, lots of good people.

I just had a 5.9 cr recently that had a similar issue and it broke the valve and destroyed the piston and locked up the engine, also spun a bearing. unsure which order and the injection shop said all my injectors were leaking.

Hopefully you get the head off and only have a knick on the piston, make sure you check or replace the rod bearing of the piston that made contact, seen these have issues when the valve and piston made contact and have light cracks or even spin down the road.

integlikewhoa
6th May, 2010, 06:32 AM
The truck is a 2006 Ford F750 with a Cummins 5.9 liter ISB CM850 with EGR. The unit was in the shop, a month ago, with a failed injector. The owner called and said the engine had some how filled with fuel and sped up over its governed setting and would not shut down with the key. After removing the valve cover, I found the #6 air intake valve broken, both tubes were bent and the injector tip was damaged, probably from the broken valve bouncing around above the piston. The air intake side of the turbo was dry and the exhaust side was wet with fuel. There is no sign of damage to the turbo. My biggest concern is, am I going to find what caused the failure when I remove the head? I can't put it back on the road until I know. I know there is many expert mechanics on this site and thought I would have more success here then any other place. Maybe this is a common problem with these units. Thanks for reading this and many thanks for suggestions.

I have alot of problems with these injectors, but its usally returning to much fuel to the tank not into the engine. I useally have hard start or crank but no start problems when the fuel pressure is low the pump cant keep up with the injectors. Never had one run away. good luck I'll be watching.

Doug__las
7th May, 2010, 06:17 PM
Got the head off and both intake valves are broke. The piston is beat up and some damage to the cylinder wall. How do you know when the damage is to much to repair? The other pistons have slight damage looks like debris from #6 is on all other pistons. Is it possible the debris came through the egr? There is some in the turbo and exhaust manifold. since these engines have no sleaves, it probably isn't going to be repairable.

integlikewhoa
7th May, 2010, 06:59 PM
Got the head off and both intake valves are broke. The piston is beat up and some damage to the cylinder wall. How do you know when the damage is to much to repair? The other pistons have slight damage looks like debris from #6 is on all other pistons. Is it possible the debris came through the egr? There is some in the turbo and exhaust manifold. since these engines have no sleaves, it probably isn't going to be repairable.

You can sleeve them, jut not your self. I have had rings brake and score the walls. They will over size the block and press in a sleeve. Then they will hone and deck the cylinder. The others if bad will just be bored 20 over. Order the oversize piston ring combo. like 100 per cylinder, upper head set, lower oil pan gasket, call out an engine re-boring guy probley going to cost 4-600 for 1 sleeve and all cylinders 20 over. Send the head out or do a cummins reman 1200 or less. Probley going to have 3g's in parts or more depending on turbo, and injectors. you buy a long block or complete going to be 10k plus. I would build it if the rods, crank and all lowers good. If it has low miles I might not even remove the cam or crank for bearings depending on miles and how the rod bearings look, but I would do rod bearings anyways while you have the pistons off.

Don't think anything came threw the EGR. Pieces in the turbo on the exhaust side only right?

Doug__las
8th May, 2010, 01:49 AM
Yes only on exhaust side. The engine was rebuilt about 2000 hrs. ago.
Any thoughts on what caused the failure?
By the way, thanks a bunch, you have given me some very useful info.

integlikewhoa
8th May, 2010, 06:12 AM
Yes only on exhaust side. The engine was rebuilt about 2000 hrs. ago.
Any thoughts on what caused the failure?
By the way, thanks a bunch, you have given me some very useful info.

I'm a Maintenance Manager for a company (FIRST TRANSIT) that contracts with cities to take care of their buses. I have seen drivers of buses do stupid things.

Electronic Diesels don't runaway as easy as old ones. I have never had one happen on any of my Buses. I would be looking good threw INSITE to see what was going on when it blew to help me find the problem. Throttle pedal control & rpm's and such to see if it really did over rev. and what inputs it was seeing.

Usually people tell you a blown turbo throwing oil threw the system would be the most likely cause of the engine to runaway on its own oil and air mix, I have yet to have this happen threw all my years of bad turbos. (doesn't sound like this cound have happend if the intake side of the turbo is clean)

With electronic injectors and the key off all would be closed, and if one failed open it wouldn't be enough to run away the engine. They also have electronic pressure regulators on the mech. pump that would lower the fuel pressure, or actually dump off the fuel back to the tank. Very slim chance they runaway and most warnings of this happening on a newer engine is when fueling due to the engine sucking in vapors from around the gas pumps. Never seen that happen either tho.

What exactly was he doing when this happened?

Also most runaway engines wont just drop a valve either. You would have alot bigger problems.

I think the problem started in the valve train. Droped a valve and caused the damage to the injector and other valve fuel in the turbo from broken injector nozzle and no compression in one cylinder. Unburnt fuel going threw the exhaust valves. You should be able to see where the wet fuel came from buy looking in the exhaust manifold and exhaust ports on the head. I'm assuming only #6 cylinder would be wet.

Hows this customer? Not making any of this up (or paranoid) about to much fuel and runaway since you did an injector already, so it must be that?

Also what cylinder had the injector put in? Same one?

DIGITALDSL
8th May, 2010, 02:12 PM
ENGINE RUNAWAY HAS TO BE FROM EXTERNAL FUEL SOURCE (OIL FROM TURBO) HARD START(STARTING FLUID) OR OPERATOR ERROR STD.TRANNY LOADED DOWNHILL OVERSPEED..COMMON RAIL FUEL INJECTOR TIPS CAN SPLIT AND DUMP FUEL..BUT NOT ALL SIX! AND IF THE RARE CHANCE EVEN TWO SPLIT WOULD KNOCK HARD NOT RUNAWAY I WOULD QUESTION CUSTOMER FURTHER I DONT THINK YOURE GETTING FULL STORY..

dafdiagnos
8th May, 2010, 05:55 PM
if it was the turbo that caused engine to run on you'd find the silencer full of oil & the sump to be empty. i've had it before thru a failed injector when nozzle stuck open & flooded bore & that ended up scrapping valves. if bits gone thru turbo don't risk it - change it. was vehicle hammered into a much lower gear suddenly

Dgtlmrdrer
9th May, 2010, 05:32 AM
Got the head off and both intake valves are broke. The piston is beat up and some damage to the cylinder wall. How do you know when the damage is to much to repair? The other pistons have slight damage looks like debris from #6 is on all other pistons. Is it possible the debris came through the egr? There is some in the turbo and exhaust manifold. since these engines have no sleaves, it probably isn't going to be repairable.


Its more likely that it all migrated through the intake manifold. I wouldn't be worried about the EGR system. There are Salvage sleeves available. If you have a good block guy available you're set. Then there is the oversized piston option. Since all cylinders showed signs of debris, I would replace them all, and i would consider rods too if it looks like there were and impacts between the piston and cylinder heds. Or have them sent out and checked for cracks etc if thats worth it financially.

Dgtlmrdrer
9th May, 2010, 05:33 AM
Yes only on exhaust side. The engine was rebuilt about 2000 hrs. ago.
Any thoughts on what caused the failure?
By the way, thanks a bunch, you have given me some very useful info.


Check your Engine Protection/Engine Abuse hsitory. Look for engine overspeeds and Severe Overheats. The overspeed could easily cause valves to drop like that.

Dgtlmrdrer
9th May, 2010, 05:40 AM
I'm not sure about the inital story about the engine filling with fuel and then running away. A failed fuel injector could have cause the cylinder to become saturated with fuel and it could find itsway back down in to the pan. And an overheat, if bad enough, could damage the injectors causing them to hang when at a high RPM. I've never had an engine run away but they will be really slow at coming back down to idle and might surge a bit while doing so.

jctech
10th March, 2011, 02:20 PM
Use Insite to download the ECM fault history, use the save a job image function to keep a copy on the PC for later viewing.
If there is an overspeed fault, look at the sensor data to see what the throttle pedal was doing, was it at idle or at 100%.
An engine will not runaway without a failed mechanical fuel pump governor or an external fuel source, usually oil from a failed turbo seal.
If one or more common rail injector nozzles stuck in the open position, (called hosing) they will inject continuously into one cylinder, this will cause the oil to be washed from the bore and the respective cylinders will suffer from scoring in a very short period of time, there will often be knocking and white smoke as well. The fuel will not migrate to another cylinder and the engine will not runaway.
An ISB has two strategies to deal with overspeed, at overspeed level 1 the fuel pressure is lowered to minimum, at overspeed level 2 the current to the injectors is stopped, nearly impossible for an ISB common rail engine to run away on its own fuel.

How did your customer stop the engine?

DICODIESEL
10th March, 2011, 11:13 PM
Use Insite to download the ECM fault history, use the save a job image function to keep a copy on the PC for later viewing.
If there is an overspeed fault, look at the sensor data to see what the throttle pedal was doing, was it at idle or at 100%.
An engine will not runaway without a failed mechanical fuel pump governor or an external fuel source, usually oil from a failed turbo seal.
If one or more common rail injector nozzles stuck in the open position, (called hosing) they will inject continuously into one cylinder, this will cause the oil to be washed from the bore and the respective cylinders will suffer from scoring in a very short period of time, there will often be knocking and white smoke as well. The fuel will not migrate to another cylinder and the engine will not runaway.
An ISB has two strategies to deal with overspeed, at overspeed level 1 the fuel pressure is lowered to minimum, at overspeed level 2 the current to the injectors is stopped, nearly impossible for an ISB common rail engine to run away on its own fuel.

How did your customer stop the engine?

my friend one question , cummins insite and nexiq is compatible with ram 4000 engine cummins 5.9??? support adapter 408033??? thanksssssss

:barscarf:

jctech
11th March, 2011, 01:06 PM
my friend one question , cummins insite and nexiq is compatible with ram 4000 engine cummins 5.9??? support adapter 408033??? thanksssssss

:barscarf:

Cummins Insite is not compatable with Dodge Ram from 2003 to 2007 model year only, it is OK with all other ISB engines , so Insite will work with your 2006 Ford with an ISB engine.

DICODIESEL
11th March, 2011, 09:05 PM
Cummins Insite is not compatable with Dodge Ram from 2003 to 2007 model year only, it is OK with all other ISB engines , so Insite will work with your 2006 Ford with an ISB engine.


umm bro, what is the best tool of diagnostic for cummins engine in ram diesel 5.9???, you said with is no comaptible with engines from 2003 to 2007?? and the engines from 2008-???... thanks for the help



pray for the brothers and sisters of JAPAN... DIOS LOS CUIDA...:congrats:

martyhgv
11th March, 2011, 09:33 PM
Did you source the fault? Quiet intreged in this one. I've witnessed 2 engines runaway( not good easy on the ears) one was caused by a faulty turbo and another from a driver goin nuts with aerostart :(

MITROSCAT
11th March, 2011, 10:08 PM
because you found the intake values u should make and see valve lash setting,i think the u may had a big gap between the lifter - push rod - intake rocker arm. or u have worn camshaft lobes.

MechanicMaster
12th March, 2011, 02:17 AM
The most common problem when a valve drop on piston is when you have no lash between the rocker and valve. The valve burn and become too hot and grip into the guide. An other way is the injector tip broke, the tip damage the bottom of the valve and the valve burn and grip.

jctech
14th March, 2011, 12:08 AM
umm bro, what is the best tool of diagnostic for cummins engine in ram diesel 5.9???, you said with is no comaptible with engines from 2003 to 2007?? and the engines from 2008-???... thanks for the help



pray for the brothers and sisters of JAPAN... DIOS LOS CUIDA...:congrats:
You have to take it to a Dodge dealer.
Calterm will connect to the J1939 datalink.

DICODIESEL
15th March, 2011, 01:17 AM
You have to take it to a Dodge dealer.
Calterm will connect to the J1939 datalink.


calterm connect with nexiq usb link and adapter 448013???

thanks broooooo
:celticscarf:

4hillbilly
30th May, 2011, 10:52 AM
umm bro, what is the best tool of diagnostic for cummins engine in ram diesel 5.9???, you said with is no comaptible with engines from 2003 to 2007?? and the engines from 2008-???... thanks for the help



pray for the brothers and sisters of JAPAN... DIOS LOS CUIDA...:congrats:

you will need a program call {star scan } the dodge ram ecm is program for chrysler not by cummins. no one here in Australia can talk to the ecm that include cummins.we have a 2009 ram and even try to go through the back bone no luck..next step will bench cabe with a ecm from isb truck engine .

hercamp
31st May, 2011, 02:58 AM
with backbone or from diagnostic obd2 terminal ...not luck...just one way ...make a bench and connect normal...j1708 or j1939...100% test. Ive done in ram 2006 to 2009.using insite.

4hillbilly
31st May, 2011, 12:44 PM
with backbone or from diagnostic obd2 terminal ...not luck...just one way ...make a bench and connect normal...j1708 or j1939...100% test. Ive done in ram 2006 to 2009.using insite.


hi hercamp
thank for that info ... would you have the the wireing dirgram for the ecm. and part number for the oem plug..haveing a lot trouble here in aussis finding any thing to do with plug and wiring .... cummins here only can supply wiring and oem plug for the truck engine. the ram oem plug is a 60 pin plug and cummins tell us the can t supply it. they only have a 50 pin one. as you said live not easy lol
thanks 4 your help:top::top:

ricz
31st May, 2011, 02:57 PM
It is possible for an electronic engine to run away if an injector is leaking fuel, and unburned fuel gets into to the exhaust it can make its way back into the engine thru the egr valve.

hercamp
2nd June, 2011, 03:41 AM
you most see the wiring in the thread about cummins wiring diagrams..there is ..