Key cutting machines

[paul_12345]

Just getting into immo/keys etc and learning about the hardware, but not much info on key cutting machines.

I'm not really looking to start a proper buisness more of just a hobby (I like my gadgets) but wouldn't mind a few ?? to pay for all the devices.

All the cutting machines seem very overpriced even for the most basic machines (Dont seem to hard to make some).

So anyone got any tips on machines for say;

Normal bladed key
Tibbe key
Laser cut key

Also would be interesting to see machines that can just copy keys and ones that can cut from code.

:top:

[automite]

Just getting into im*o/keys etc and learning about the hardware, but not much info on key cutting machines.

I'm not really looking to start a proper buisness more of just a hobby (I like my gadgets) but wouldn't mind a few ?? to pay for all the devices.

All the cutting machines seem very overpriced even for the most basic machines (Dont seem to hard to make some).

So anyone got any tips on machines for say;

Normal bladed key
Tibbe key
Laser cut key

Also would be interesting to see machines that can just copy keys and ones that can cut from code.

:top:

I just bought ILCO 040 and Silca Maxtrix S. The ILCO makes copies of bladed key, the Silca makes copies of laser keys. Both cost around $3000 USD.

The machines that cut keys from code are very expensive, you can get around this by having a dealer cut the first key by code then make copies yourself afterward.

[paul_12345]

anyone else think the prices for these are complete robbery?

For a normal bladed key style, you've got basically a motor with a cutting disc and a none moving blade etc.

Then just 2 clamps that move, surely very easy to make all you'd have to do it make sure the 2 clamps move in the same position? or am I missing something?

Even the laser cutting machine are similar design. Makes me tempted to buy a small cnc router machine and make my own.

Could even design a cnc key cutter that could cut from code? Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Anyone got a cheap source for blades/motors clamps etc that could be used in a homemade cutting machine?

[circ]

No one machine will do everything


:top:

I just bought ILCO 040 and Silca Maxtrix S. The ILCO makes copies of bladed key, the Silca makes copies of laser keys. Both cost around $3000 USD.

The machines that cut keys from code are very expensive, you can get around this by having a dealer cut the first key by code then make copies yourself afterward.

Just get yourself a CNC Router or Milling machine and get the CNC Key cutting software (http://keycut.webs.com/). It cuts laser keys to code and to sample and also cuts normal bladed keys. Also does Ford Tibbe keys. Only $120.00

[Darren_Glasgow]

Hi all. Although kinda new to this,i've been into cnc/robotics etc for quite a while now.Over the years,i've built a few home-brew machines which made me quite a bit of money. In reply to paul's question,just about everything you say is correct mate.Machines are so simple,but just need to be made good enough that they dont "flex" in any way. More info,just ask, Darren

[tahir 786]

no machine can do everything

[rayjay]

paul you can pick up cylinder key machines very cheaply and aslong as the cutter is sharp then all good.
i just sold one of them and also my new laser duplicator.
regarding making hombre machines yes this is not a problem. the problem comes from precision, the machine must be able to be calibrated easily and also movement through the key must be smooth and free.
cnc can be programmed for the job but as there are many types of key around then it needs software for all these keys depths and spacings. preferably it wld be compatable with say instacode. this is what you are paying for with the big named code cutters.

[circ]

I use my cnc machine for cutting keys.
Mainly 2 and 4 track laser keys. and Tibbe.
You need to download the wizards at Cut Keys on a CNC Machine - Home (http://keycut.webs.com/)
They work with Mach3 cnc controller.
I also have normal cylinder key code cutting software, but i dont use it as i have HPC and i have to enter my own space and depth info.
The wizards are used to cut the keys to code. They are making more wizards all the time some for tubular keys and abloy etc.
A cnc milling machine was the best investment i ever made for locksmithing. It can cut all keys with the correct code or wizard.

[keyprogramming]

Paul,
Try searching Ebay on a regular basis before they remove them.
Drop the seller a message with your contact details, you may strike lucky.
I managed to get 2 Tibbe machines, a Silca matrix, and a basic Laser machine.
Another good source is Gumtree as they don't get removed.
Happy hunting.
Cut to code are expensive, even more-so with the value of the pound being low as all machines are imported, the better ones from Europe.
If you're only doing the odd laser and not in a rush then your supplier is the best route.
Cutters are horrendously expensive for Bianchi 994/BD Laser around the ?70. I snapped one recently accidently cutting a crappy chinese blade. It turned out to be a steel one that had got mixed in the good ones.

[circ]

this is how much my mill setup cost. There are probably better or cheaper ways. The milling machine is only small but ideal for cutting keys. A router design may have been better because it will run faster, but it dosent really matter and rigidity in the mill makes it more accurate.
You can also buy taig mills or sherline mills, but they were more expensive, but may work better? You need a mill that will run on Mach3 under windows so dont buy a LINUX setup.


siege X1 miling machine from harbour freight $320.

XI Mill CNC Conversion kit (http://www.cncfusion.com/micromill1.html) $270.00

Drive Belt conversion (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3488&category=1057823482) $155

CNC Controller and stepper motors (http://www.xylotex.com/Econo3AxSpecial.htm) $410.00

USB Interface/controller (http://www.warp9td.com/) $150.00

Breakout Board (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=47) $74.00

Mach3 (http://www.machsupport.com/purchase.php) $175.00

Key cutting wizards for mach3 (http://keycut.webs.com/) $120.00

Other things you need are
a probe attachment, which is just a wire attached to the breakout board then attach it to a tracer. Also need to electrically isolate the key from the bed of the machine.

A Vice to hold the key. I use a vice from a cheap milling duplicator. You can make a holder to hold a key then clamp it in a mill vice.

Milling cutters etc. You can get carbide cutters cheap from here. (http://drillcity.stores.yahoo.net/31122flut1.html)

Total price is around $1700.00
You can get away without purchasing Drive belt conversion, breakout board, usb controller and Mach3 (use the free version). It would save around $500.00 But I would reccomend using these items for this setup.

[circ]

In response to a couple of private messages...

The Siege X1 milling machine is made in china. They ship them all over the world. Do a search for it, there is probably someone selling it in your country Australia eg (http://wic043u.server-secure.com/vs4487_secure/dept.asp?id=136)

The tracer probe i mentioned is similar to a tracer in a regular key machine. But it works as a touch probe. When it touches the key it makes a circuit and tells the computer the position of the key etc. The key/key vice has to be electrically isolated from the rest of the machine. I just mounted a vice onto a piece of plastic (you could use cutting board?) then mounted the plastic to the mill table. This is a mill using a touch probe to digitalize a key.

Can you convert a Key machine such as Silca Matrix into a cnc key machine. Yes absolutely!. But it is alot more work then using a mill or router. You have to make all the mounts and leadscrews, leadscrew nuts etc. It will probably cost you more in the long run then buying a cheap mill.

[greenthumb]

it really depends on the vehicles your working on. so many different tools for different vehicles. american asian or european?

[nazz2]

circ
I have located a x1 machine(under clarke brand cmd10) in my local area,what next?according to your lists,what items to buy to go with this machine?, since it might be more difficult to source them in uk thnx

nazz2

[circ]

Nazz,
The CNC part can be a bit bewildering.
But to put it simply
To make the motors turn you will need
Stepper Motor controller (such as Xylotex (Use Bipolar not Unipolar))
& Stepper Motors ( Xylotex sell them as a kit with controller and motors. 260 oz. in)
A Parallel Cable
A computer with a parallel Port.

Then Download Mach3
Set the pins and ports in Mach3 & Thats it!

To convert an X1 Mill you will to mount the spepper motors to the mill.
You can buy a stepper motor mount kit from CNCFusion.

I dont know if you will be able to get much cheaper then the links i posted previously? Even with postage and $ conversion.

The X1 Drive belt conversion just makes the mill run smoother and faster.

The Breakout board goes between the computer and the motor controller. You can simply plug it in with an extra parallel cable. It is also easy to attach probe attachments and limit switches to.
The breakout board is also optically isolated. This means that the wires are not connected directly, so it will protect your computer from shorts, spikes, interferance and nasty stuff.


The USB controller (Smooth Stepper) is not only a USB interface, but it is also makes converts the pulses/signals from the computer into more high quality pulses that are then sent to the motor controller. While you dont need this it really makes a differance to the stepper motor performance.

The other thing that is pretty important is to have some homing switches on the X and Y axis. You can see in the video above the first thing the machine does is home the X and Y axis.

[nazz2]

hi circ
what do you think about this one?i think i found what i was looking for,tell me what you think mate,thnx,more questions later,lol

nazz2

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PROXXON-37110-MICRO-MILLING-MILL-MF70-CNC-KIT-AVAILABLE-/350300979006?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518f90bf3e

[Fallen]

Hi circ, that is some pretty interesting stuff. I love the idea of making something for a fraction of the price the major manufacturers are charging.

I realise it is nowhere as fast or user friendly but it's a work in progress. The more locksmiths who decide to go down this route, the faster it will develop.

Small changes to the software will make this process much faster.
For example, I notice the machine is taking lots of small measurements along the key, where a commercial machine will only take as many measurements as there is cuts on the key, 12 cuts, 12 measurements and the computer will fill in the blanks.

My hat is off to you good sir!

[paul_12345]

much easier to do all the key decoding in software.

place the key in a clamp, use a quite high res camera built in to take a picture.

You can use one of the software packages that give you the measurements of the cuts to use with you software to decode it. or just cut to copy from the picture.

This way you just need 3 axis platform controlled with the stepper motors, and a fixed drill for laser/wave type and 2 axis and a cutter/motor for cylinder/ mortice keys

[Fallen]

You have software that decodes from a picture?
I usually measure the cuts and compare to instacode. Whats the name of the software you use?

[circ]

gjhfsdasAJG'JL;

[teuton]

gjhfsdasAJG'JL;


?!? so what ?!?

[paul_12345]

You have software that decodes from a picture?
I usually measure the cuts and compare to instacode. Whats the name of the software you use?

No but wouldn't be to hard to make one, would be easier if you had a clamp with fixed camera above

[circ]

Nazz,
Those Proxxon mills are really small and dont have the best leadscrews etc, but i like that they run at 20,000 rpm. For cutting keys the faster the better!
Check out zaerotech (http://www.zaerotech.com/za_prod.htm).
They have a cnc conversion (http://www.zaerotech.com/za_prod.htm) for these mills.
For cutting keys they might be ok? priced from $220 - $1500


On decoding using a camera.
Bianchi make a key machine that decodes this way. I think it is on their Safe key cutting machine? Safe Keys are 2D (you can take a picture with a background behind and they are cut just in and out). Track keys would be messy as you cant get a picture with a background. Standard keys would be tricky too as you have to duplicate the angle cuts? Would be easier if you were decoding and knew the Space and Depth, but that would be a waste of time and money..
There was some talk about probing using a camera on Machsupport.com forum, but as far as I can tell it isnt as easy as it sounds.

[circ]

Fallen,
Yep, you are right. The probing in that video isnt what you would want to really do. It is just an attempt to make a generic probing sequence for a key.
Knowing the Space and Depth and just probing at the correct spacing is a better option. Then you can decode the key and recut it to code.

It looks like there are too many unneeded jumps in the video, but the probe needed to be pulled out and back after probing each point or it would get stuck on edges. Probing straight in and out would overcome this, but it dosent pick up the edges of the cuts.
Also it is interesting that if you use a smaller diam probe and cutter to probe the key (not the same as the cutter that cut the key originally) it is very accurate as it probes not just in and out, but sideways.

[paul_12345]

You can do it all in software.

Scale/rotate the pic to size, overlay the grid for decoding, a few algorithms and your sorted, you can also show the decoding markers for user correction.

For standard keys its easy to decode as you say you can have a background colour and decode it that way.

For track keys a few algorithms should find the edge and show the markers again to make sure its correct

[mojomojo]

here the decodeing software
Raster2Vector (http://www.cnccontrols.com/raster2vector.asp)

[lock-key]

Hello every one,

I found 3D Pro laser key cutting machine, this machine cost under $6,000 (USD) with included software,

Here is websit

Laser Key Products (http://www.laserkeyproducts.com/)

There is demo videos.

Have a great day !

[mojomojo]

I personally use this machine!!! This is a great all around machine. I noticed with the 3d-pro unlike other machines, looks like they themselves mass converted a mill machine and dressed it nicely. There are a still a few glitches with this machine. For exmaple they were still working on getting the tibbe keys cut correctly.

They have not perfected it yet just like it happened to Intra Lock's Sidewinder ( Intralock Tools Ltd - ITL Sidewinder page (http://www.intralocktools.com/products_sw.html) )


Hello every one,

I found 3D Pro laser key cutting machine, this machine cost under $6,000 (USD) with included software,

Here is websit

Laser Key Products (http://www.laserkeyproducts.com/)

There is demo videos.

Have a great day !

[Fallen]

Hello every one,

I found 3D Pro laser key cutting machine, this machine cost under $6,000 (USD) with included software,

Here is websit

Laser Key Products (http://www.laserkeyproducts.com/)

There is demo videos.

Have a great day !

That shows a lot of promise but they really need to spend a few bucks on a decent demo video, I got motion sickness watching it! (Kanye West too? Come on, I want to hear the machine dammit!)
It looks like they wrote their own key cutting software for it too.
I wonder if you could drive it off instacode?

[adamgr]

No a 3D pro only has its own database
I cannot be run via instacode

had a demo of one. good little machine
but does not cover all UK models
no peugeot,citreon,a bit of new laser renaults
database is very USA market

When launched here at end of the year with a UK database.
I will have another look at it for sure

HTH Adam

[estate]

got a tibbe machine sat here, from a main dealer ;)

[Eamonahmed]

Where is time to fix those things ?Or adjust

[Sergo76]

I think nobody got the soft frome Cut keys on a CNC Machine. www.keycut.webs.com/ (http://www.keycut.webs.com/) I am trying to contact them, but no luck.
Does anyone know another soft like this??

[Automat]

You can find these machines from asian distributors at reasonable prices. Also, for Tibbe keys, KLOM makes an adapter for the vertical machine that will cut them by code.
Check this link
Foshan City Nanhai District Yanbu Wenxing Machine Factory - Key cutting machines and relative parts,key copy machine,key cutter (http://keymachineseries.en.alibaba.com)

[Sergo76]

i mean the soft for the mill, to cut the key

[JIMMYQ]

if anyone is selling either a laser or tibbe or cylinder machine let me know cheers :)

aslo can we have some more details on how to cut the key from a photo and whats required exactly

[jimthejock]

cutting keys from a picture is really easy you only have to read the cuts from the key in the picture and cut them on your machine

[mecadriano]

but if a copy is very easy, but guess I really need is what one can do that from the code, card number of the key, provided by the manufacturer or read the professional from the cylinder.
User, so if any knows how this Faser, support and see if we could leave a good thing for everyone.
Home - Cut Keys on a CNC Machine (http://keycut.webs.com/) my vote to help continue to develop and improve
your program, by value, is for everyone.
let's join together and stay together so we can grow and get stronger and full of information and for all.

[Automat]

if anyone is selling either a laser or tibbe or cylinder machine let me know cheers :)

aslo can we have some more details on how to cut the key from a photo and whats required exactly
American Key Supply, The Locksmith's Source for Keys & Tools (http://www.americankeysupply.com/index.php)

[shaykie]

no machine can do everything

Take A Look at the "3d pro Key machine"
Takes a few months to get one since they make them to order.
runs at about $6K but this thing can do everything!
:thrasher:

[JIMMYQ]

just treated myself for christmas and bought the miracle a5 machine off peter at lockdecoders got delivered today cut a few keys and it super duper aswell as his support :)
will keep you posted after ive learnt the ins and outs of it but so far well chuffed!

[obdmaster]

just treated myself for christmas and bought the miracle a5 machine off peter at lockdecoders got delivered today cut a few keys and it super duper aswell as his support :)
will keep you posted after ive learnt the ins and outs of it but so far well chuffed!


How much was it m8, if you dont mind me asking????

[JIMMYQ]

Price: ?3,830.00 (?4,500.25 Including VAT) :)

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

The Miracle A5 does everything, double sided, laser, Tibbie and SX9.

There is another machine called the Chacka Bay which claims to be an all singing and dancing machine. In my opinion it should be called the Chuck Away.

[lockbreaker]

What is SX9, presumably a dimple type key or something, new Nissan?

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

SX9 is the cruciform key used by Citroen, Fiat and Peugeot on such vehicles as the Berlingo, Dispatch, Scudo, Expert, Partner and others.

[lockbreaker]

Cool, that's why I wouldn't know....I'm on the other side of the pond....those cars are unheard of here.

[buga37]

can someone share the Cnc key cutting program

[rob h]

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=292991&stc=1http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=292992&stc=1

These blue key tools are no loger available. The other restructuring tool are on many Chinese website, they are for:
HU100
HU100R
HON66
HU66
HU64
HU92
HY2
Toy48
VAT2