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dusan147
12th July, 2010, 03:20 PM
Question about ECM2001...
What is essential difference between following "Turbo" menu items:
a) turbo pressure,
b) turbo pressure f(temp) and
c) turbo pressure f(temp) 2
And in what units is defined overboost?

dusan147
17th July, 2010, 05:27 PM
It is menu pattern with driver for Alfa 147 1.9 JTD 8v (A147_332.DRV file)...
What of mentioned maps mainly determines performance (HP/Nm)?
I think the first - a), but what is the importance of other maps: b) and c)?

TWINGO
17th July, 2010, 05:52 PM
Turbo pressure "B" & "C" are overboost pressure time for not recovered ecu when you increase turbo pressure. They are not excensial for road use...:rock:

dusan147
17th July, 2010, 06:22 PM
What you mean when you say "non recovered ECU"?

TWINGO
18th July, 2010, 12:53 AM
WHEN THE TURBO PRESSURE LIMIT IS OVER THE LIMIT OF ECU PARAMETERS, ECU STOP THE ENGINE OR DECREASE THE POWER.

dusan147
18th July, 2010, 12:39 PM
Thank you for the explanation TWINGO...
If I understand correct: you say that "B" and "C" map consists values of maximum allowed pressure for which ECU doesn't perform error state (MCSF i.e. Motor Control System Failure - well known for Alfa vehicles). Maximum pressure value in map "B" I measured (FitaECUScan 2.1) as so-called "Desired boost pressure". I find in map "C" completely sam values as in original (factory) map "A".
Can I increase (but not too much) this values and minimize risk of MCSF error?
Map "A" is a main map which strongly determines the prerformances?

VOLUMAX
18th July, 2010, 12:48 PM
bullshits :)

dusan147
18th July, 2010, 12:52 PM
If you are right can you say true information?

VOLUMAX
18th July, 2010, 01:19 PM
Map recognitions of ECM are crap !
In this case "turbo pressure" is desired(target) boost presure , "turbo pressure f(temp) " is boost limiter vs barometric pressure and "overboost " is duty cycle for the solenoid valve .

dusan147
18th July, 2010, 02:09 PM
I will repeat:
- maximum pressure value in turbo pressure f(temp) map I measured (by FitaECUScan 2.1) in "Desired boost pressure" section and
- I find in turbo pressure f(temp) 2 map almost same values as in original (factory) turbo pressure map.
I give screens of turbo pressure map, turbo pressure f(temp) map and turbo pressure f(temp) 2 map...

TWINGO
18th July, 2010, 03:03 PM
THANKS VOLUMAX FOR YOUR EXPLICATION. YOU ARE MORE DETAILED... I'M MORE PRACTICAL... DUSAN YOU DON'T TOUCH "B" & "C" PARAMETERS... INCREASE ONLY "TURBO PRESSURE PARAMETERS". I'VE TRIED WHIT ALFA GT AND ALFA 156: 1,6 BAR. NO PROBLEM. VOLUMAX, IS RIGHT?

dusan147
18th July, 2010, 04:46 PM
Now, I have (in my 147) configuration with 2.66bar of maximum turbo pressure (2.15bar is factory original configuration maximum turbo pressure).
But turbo pressure f(temp) and turbo pressure f(temp) 2 are same maps for both configuration (factory original and my actual). Is it good for performance?

rsibiza
18th July, 2010, 09:50 PM
Now, I have (in my 147) configuration with 2.66bar of maximum turbo pressure (2.15bar is factory original configuration maximum turbo pressure).
But turbo pressure f(temp) and turbo pressure f(temp) 2 are same maps for both configuration (factory original and my actual). Is it good for performance?



If your engine have some troubles and mil goes on,engine runs on reduced power,it will take data from B and C maps,and decrease boost.

Yes it s the way to do.

@twingo

please don write in caps,no need to shout here(read rules)

best regards.

TWINGO
19th July, 2010, 12:09 AM
Sorry for caps... I've read the original file alfa romeo with galletto and after I've edit it with ecm. The original turbo pressure whit driver 138-889 is 1.2 or 1.3 bar. I never have read original pressure over 1.5 bar.

dusan147
19th July, 2010, 06:22 AM
For 147 1.9 JTD 8v (from 2001) and with driver file "A147_332.drv" I have following map "A", "B" and "C" - see attachment...
Max boost in "A" is 2.155bar, max boost in "B" is 2.350bar and max in "C" is 2.18bar...
According to this I conclude that "C" is map for some trouble circumstances, but map "B" is maybe overboost map.

dusan147
19th July, 2010, 06:46 AM
For the comparison purpose I give you maps from one MOD file...
- "B" with max boost of 2.733bar
- "C" with max boost of 2.420bar
- "A" with max boost of 2.393bar

TribesMac
19th July, 2010, 06:56 AM
Hello dusan,
map B is not overboost, but boost limit in regard to engine rpm and atmospheric pressure. It is not rpm vs load as the ECM suggests.
Anyway, no matter what you set in you desired boost map (map A) your boost will not get higher than boost limit in map B. And map C does the same but probably for safe mode operation.

I guess :D

coolbits
19th July, 2010, 07:53 AM
Hi TribesMac(n) :)
Dusan, better leave maps B and C at original.
Map A in picture is higher than 2.393bar watch it...
I would not go higher than 2.5bar with stock turbo.

rsibiza
19th July, 2010, 09:29 AM
Sorry for caps... I've read the original file alfa romeo with galletto and after I've edit it with ecm. The original turbo pressure whit driver 138-889 is 1.2 or 1.3 bar. I never have read original pressure over 1.5 bar.



Turbo boost in MAPS are pure pressure + barometric pressure

Your real turbo boost target= Boost from Map- 1bar(barometric pressure more or less),so you have a boost map for 2,393-1=1,393...

jstanchev
19th July, 2010, 10:46 AM
rsibiza explain perfect!!!
I think real pressure is show in map when select "Calculate turbo press." and then select "edc common rail",but this is exactly pressure "Boost from Map - barometric pressure).

dusan147
19th July, 2010, 12:29 PM
...your boost will not get higher than boost limit in map B. And map C does the same but probably for safe mode operation...
Hello Tribesman,
I have similar explanation about these three maps... But little confusion is maded by following fact: I measured (by FiatECUScan 2.1) as "Desired turbo pressure" same values as in map "B".
In that way map "B" is desired pressure map... If map "C" is for some kind of safe mod, what is true meaning of map "A"?

nicamarcos
19th July, 2010, 04:48 PM
Map recognitions of ECM are crap !
In this case "turbo pressure" is desired(target) boost presure , "turbo pressure f(temp) " is boost limiter vs barometric pressure and "overboost " is duty cycle for the solenoid valve .

...+1, right 100% :)

TribesMac
19th July, 2010, 07:06 PM
Dusan take your car and fiat ecu scan and do this:

Accelerate in 4th gear from 1000 to 4500 rpm (gas pedal on the floor).

In Fiat ECU Scan log this items:

Engine RPM
Desired Boost
Actual Boost

See what you get. If you get anything higher than the values in map A, then something is not OK.

Also, setting your map B to 2.73 makes no sense and is dangerous, your car has a 1.5 bar MAP, so it can only measure 1.5 bar boost (maybe a few percent more, but I'm almost 100% sure that it cant measure 1.7 bar boost, for that you need 2 bar MAP), and in your boost limit map you have 2.73 bar as "max". Where is the logic in that?

dusan147
19th July, 2010, 09:49 PM
I performed this test and obtain 2.522bar of boost and 2.319bar of desired boost... This second value is close to the maximum in map "B"...

TWINGO
19th July, 2010, 10:46 PM
I never tried this car and this driver... Can you send me the original file? I'd like to see.:smokin: You use ECM 2001 V6.3? I work with it.

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 05:23 AM
Your boost is probably higher than that but your car does not show it. (over 2.5bar (1.5actual bar))
Thats why i said i would not go higher than that.
I would lower it to match desired boost and then go a bit higher with both.

I drive same car as you... so here you have my tune for reference.
Its a stage1 and can go higher... but im happy with it.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 06:30 AM
I never tried this car and this driver... Can you send me the original file? I'd like to see...


I drive same car as you... so here you have my tune for reference.
Its a stage1 and can go higher... but im happy with it.

I send you my driver, ORI and MOD files in 147 1.9 JTD 8v.rar
I send you drivers.rar with two drivers and I have dilemma which driver is right for my Alfa? I read my maps in ECM by use of 147_332.drv, but coolbits's files I can read only with A332_962.drv. What is explanation?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 06:47 AM
Your .ori file is damaged in archive... can you repack and reupload?

My software version is 962 yours is 624... thats why i said to use for reference.
Yeah ecm no good :)

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 06:54 AM
Again... Sorry, I have some problems with attachments... I will repeat sending if you have problem again.

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 07:08 AM
Your .ori file still damaged... i cannot get checksum...
.mod file checks ok

I cannot compare this way sorry.
How did you read your original ecu file?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 07:29 AM
I got .ori for your ECU somewhere else and compared to your .mod... (i attached original)
You get a bit smokey dont you? :)
I wouldnt use that mod, i think it is a bit hard... but i could be wrong.

TribesMac
20th July, 2010, 08:30 AM
I dont know much about chiptuning, but that mod that you posted dusan I wouldn put that anywhere near my car...

- drivers wish map is increased by a constant value almost through whole range... I have no idea what is the point of that
- start of injection hasnt been touched (or I didnt find the right map)
- smoke limit map O_o
- 30% higher desired turbo pressure - that is a pushing the limits - also 2.6 bar desired pressure on a car with only 2.5 bar MAP sensor...
- turbo pressure limiter not touched
- vacuum solenoid valve duyt cycle increased by a constant value through whole map
- torque limiter doesnt do much limiting anymore (at least not in low revs)
...

As coolbits said thist must smoke.

And the values in this ECU file are different that the ones you posted on the screenshots eariler in this thread...
Post the file that you got that screenshots from.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 12:55 PM
Can we make agreement: what is 16x16 map "A" i.e. turbo pressure , and what is 8x8 map "B" i.e. turbo pressure f(temp)?
After that we have base for following discussion...

I have three MOD files: with 2.39bar, 2.50bar and 2.67bar boost... These values are from "A" map of mentioned MOD files. Maximum boost from maps type "B" i. e. turbo pressure f(temp) maps are: 2.73bar, 2.55bar and 2.35bar respectively...
Are these values enough for conclusion about these mod files?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 01:00 PM
Can we make agreement: what is 16x16 map "A", and what is 8x8 map "B"?
After that we have base for following discussion...


Hello dusan,
map B is not overboost, but boost limit in regard to engine rpm and atmospheric pressure. It is not rpm vs load as the ECM suggests.
Anyway, no matter what you set in you desired boost map (map A) your boost will not get higher than boost limit in map B. And map C does the same but probably for safe mode operation.

I guess :D

It was already posted if you missed it.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 01:08 PM
But it isn't correct I think...
Because FiatECUScan show that "desired turbo pressure" is in map "B" not in map "A"...
I think that only one serious tuner can resolve this confusion...

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 01:11 PM
How does FiatECUScan show that?? :)
Map B is limiter 100%
It is normal that boost rises when you rise your limiter your desired pressure is already too high.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 01:22 PM
Ok - If you are right i have only one question -
What map is the best for our 147 1.9 JTD 8v:
a) 2.39bar from "A" and 2.73bar from "B"
b) 2.50bar from "A" and 2.55bar from "B" or
c) 2.66bar from "A" and 2.35bar from "B" (MOD file which is in my 147 now).

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 01:27 PM
Depends... the best map is the one that has the best fuel/air/boost ratio...
There is no changing only one map... you must calculate all with injected fuel quantity and intake air.
More fuel you add, more boost/air you need... ratio air/fuel must be the same.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 01:36 PM
If above mentioned maps are with same quantity of fuel (fuel pressure) which is the best?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 01:41 PM
None... your fueling is too high... you need a bigger turbo for that.
I would go with 2.50bar from "A" and 2.55bar from "B" MAX and adjust fueling

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 02:09 PM
Ok - thank you coolbits for suggestion...
I send a Fuel Pressure Map from this MOD file. As you can see max fuel pressure is 1350bar what is factory level... Do you have any idea about raising of this fuel pressure or changing some other porametr about fueling?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 02:22 PM
This is rail pressure map... leave this at original for now and go with duration first.
Check my files for this.

TribesMac
20th July, 2010, 02:41 PM
dusan you may think that map B is turbo pressure because values in map B are acually lower than the ones in map A (the actual desired boost pressure map). No matter what you write in the map A, if values in map B are lower your boost will not go higher than values in map B (it is the limiter)...

Your measured turbo pressure concerns me. It is higher than the desired pressure by the ECU, and this can be because of the boost creep. Also you are measuring values higher than 2.5bar. This is dangerous, because your ECU cant regulate the pressure no more once it is over the measuring range of your sensor.
You will overspeed and kill your turbo by doing that.

Is there a single value boost pressure limiter in the EDC15? If yes where is it and how high is the value in dusan's ECU file?

TribesMac
20th July, 2010, 02:43 PM
About the three different files,

The file with 2.5 bar in map A and 2.55 bar in map B makes the most sense, but even this one is too close to the limit of the MAP sensor. I would set the pressure in MAP B no higher than 2.5bar and a bit lower for the MAP A.

But then you have to sort the fueling accordingly...

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 02:48 PM
...go with duration first. Check my files for this.

Where is position of "duration" data?


...Your measured turbo pressure concerns me. It is higher than the desired pressure by the ECU, and this can be because of the boost creep... Also you are measuring values higher than 2.5bar. This is dangerous...
Is there a single value boost pressure limiter in the EDC15? If yes where is it and how high is the value in dusan's ECU file?

You are right that I go "close to the edge" but... you know - it is tuning... I agree that I could go to some other map (coolbits has good recommendation)...

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 02:58 PM
Here is a tuned file for your ECU...
Not made by me and its not the best but definately better than your mod.
You can use it as reference or try it.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 03:09 PM
Thank you coolbits - it is very good MOD file - same as mine with 2.50bar turbo pressure...
Where are fuel duration values?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 03:11 PM
Those are already changed in this file... try it if you want.
They are at 72366 and 72836

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 03:21 PM
On this location I find zeros? Both in ORI and MOD file...

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 03:31 PM
The addresses are ok.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 03:32 PM
Which software you use?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 03:34 PM
Winols mostly.

dusan147
20th July, 2010, 03:42 PM
ECM and Winols drivers are same?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 03:44 PM
NO
It finds some maps, other you find manualy and edit in hex editor or ecm.
Winols demo does not allow saving but works great.

jstanchev
20th July, 2010, 06:55 PM
coolbits, why difference in ori and mod file's(Alfa147_1.9JTD(8V)-0281010332-351962.zip) are small and in very small range? only changes in "injection at part throttle" 2 maps,"turbo pressure"," turbo pressure f(temp.)" and "torque limiter"
This mod file how much HP and NM give in +.

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 07:31 PM
Yes small changes approx +10-15 hp. i dont have dyno.
But 0-100 i do in 10,5 seconds. :)
Turbo limiter is low and can be raised +5% no problem, it is now on 1,35bar.
I hardly find time to do some more on my ecu :)

jstanchev
20th July, 2010, 08:37 PM
what happend if change "overboost" map?

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 08:48 PM
You would probably get too much boost.
Try it :)

jstanchev
20th July, 2010, 09:19 PM
my map of boost is change :)
If you want take a look in my mod file ;)

coolbits
20th July, 2010, 09:36 PM
OMG
Dont use this.
There is practicaly no torque limiter.
Boost limiter is arround 3,5bar if not more, car sensor measures max 2,5bar
Rail pressure raised why?
Rail pressure limiter raised?
Safe mode requested boost raised why?

jstanchev
20th July, 2010, 10:08 PM
boost limiter is around 3,0bar or wrong.
I use this mod on my car two years and no problems,this file is made from tunning firm, not from me :).

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 05:18 AM
Your car would not run 2 years with this... so dont tell jokes.
Only if you drive like a grandma.

dusan147
21st July, 2010, 06:03 AM
One question about RPM/Load/boost curves...
In 3D view of turbo pressure map we can see many peaks and abrupt changes of pressure values... Is a better solution if I make smoother turbo pressure diagram or characteristic of JTD engine need peaks in RPM/Load/boost diagram?

jstanchev
21st July, 2010, 06:04 AM
I dont tell jokes, i'm serious.I drive 2 years and around 40000km,drive normally and with nice acceleration.never drive as grandma.

But why you amazing of this mod,with this car is around 150HP... who is the right way to make car this HP?

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 06:12 AM
Because torque limiter too high, not limiting anything and turbo pressure over all limits too.

Dusan, those peaks are there for a reason.
You think they dont know how to do it in factory?
Even a small change can make a big difference.

jstanchev
21st July, 2010, 06:39 AM
but why pressure in "turbo pressure" map max is 1,55.can you show me a mod file which reaches these HP.how must look such mod file?

Thanks

dusan147
21st July, 2010, 06:44 AM
I mean "peaks in MOD file map" (red polygonal line) in comparison with ORI map (blue relatively smooth curve)... What is true reason for 2.450bat peak in 2500RPM and 69% of load?

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 06:48 AM
but why pressure in "turbo pressure" map max is 1,55.can you show me a mod file which reaches these HP.how must look such mod file?

Thanks

Calculated pressure by who? And dont tell me ECM.
How did you measure actual pressure on the car? The sensor does not measure more than 2,5 and after that you get errors.
Get that HP is not a problem, if you dont care how long it will run.

TribesMac
21st July, 2010, 08:24 AM
dusan I think that the main reason for that is that your car had a remap by somebody who shouldt be allowed near your car...

There is absolutely no good reason why that spike is there IMO.

jstanchev
21st July, 2010, 08:51 AM
I know map sensor measure 2,5 bar and new 16V to 3.0 bar.i measure with "fiatecuscan" and max pressure is around 2,1.the car never get error with this mod.

How do you think to change ori to get this HP ?,do you have some sample files with remap good for your criteria(but HP is not 10-15 up,30+ up :) ) .Most tunning firm give around 145HP for this version of ECU.

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 08:59 AM
No need to defend your mod... run it and be happy. :)
I just said i wouldnt run it because i need a reliable car.

Here is an example of "normal" 2.55bar turbo limiter and your map limiter below.
Is this healthy? :)

jstanchev
21st July, 2010, 12:33 PM
Ok if i understand you correct you told me that is not bad remap, just very high values in maps and this is dangerous for car? how can i normalize the maps but without lose HP and NM.

What is optimal power of this Engine only with remap by you?

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 12:35 PM
Check modded file i posted for dusan147 use it as reference... that is max i would do too.
But what do i know...

dusan147
21st July, 2010, 02:08 PM
...There is absolutely no good reason why that spike is there IMO.
First I wish to emphasize that this MOD file (with many spikes/peaks) is from unknown tuner and take place in many tuning sites. Coolbits sent to me same MOD file.
I have similar opinion like yours but I like to see some technical explanation about need of existences of these spikes... Maybe peaks/spikes are consequence of hurry in tuning, maybe something what is necessary because of the nature of JTD engine?

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 02:16 PM
Maybe they want it only to look professional :)

But the fact is that on some ecu one map is for different functions... what i mean is one part of same map is when accelerating, other part is for high rpm and no acceleration, another part is low equal rpm city drive and so on.... for example.
That would explain spikes somewhere.
But i doubt this is on edc15 who knows :)

I highly recommend some reading.
http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/f104/reference-diagnostic-books-68177/

dusan147
21st July, 2010, 02:42 PM
I am only curious about shape of curve (from 2700rpm to 5000rpm) in ORI turbo map (concave blue line) and I wonder what will be consequence of "straightening" of this curve from 2700rpm to 5000rpm (straight red line) or making convex curve for this segment?

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 02:52 PM
Best way to find out is to test it on car and measure all before & after.
Or read somewhere to find exact function of that part of map.
No other way.

dusan147
21st July, 2010, 03:02 PM
I agree...

jstanchev
21st July, 2010, 03:07 PM
Best way to find out is to test it on car and measure all before & after.
Or read somewhere to find exact function of that part of map.
No other way.

And i agree, this is best way.

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 03:13 PM
But before testing make sure you know what is you are testing and what is safe limit you can go to.
If you dont know what map is and does... dont touch it. :)

jstanchev
21st July, 2010, 03:28 PM
But before testing make sure you know what is you are testing and what is safe limit you can go to.
If you dont know what map is and does... dont touch it. :)

yes of course.if i have more time these days i will test your file, but i think will very big difference :)

coolbits
21st July, 2010, 03:31 PM
Ill send you my latest file then just pm me.
You have same ecu sw version?

rsibiza
21st July, 2010, 11:15 PM
I am only curious about shape of curve (from 2700rpm to 5000rpm) in ORI turbo map (concave blue line) and I wonder what will be consequence of "straightening" of this curve from 2700rpm to 5000rpm (straight red line) or making convex curve for this segment?


Doing this way you fall down with pressure on 56% accelerator...you have to raise all after 50%...not only at 50%..

dusan147
22nd July, 2010, 06:30 AM
This is only one example for illustration purpose (and because of this only at 50% of load)...
In real case I could increase (by "straightening" or by other way) all pressure holes. Of course, if it is useful for performance gain.
Can you comment pressure holes in map on the bottom picture - this map is from MOD file which is very often in our 147 1.9 JTD 8v...

rsibiza
22nd July, 2010, 12:30 PM
This is only one example for illustration purpose (and because of this only at 50% of load)...
In real case I could increase (by "straightening" or by other way) all pressure holes. Of course, if it is useful for performance gain.
Can you comment pressure holes in map on the bottom picture - this map is from MOD file which is very often in our 147 1.9 JTD 8v...


For sure,for me there is no reason for these holes and pikes,in ori (blue) you dont see that holes and pikes.

So i think these are faults,and copied by so many poeple they downloadet or bought ebay tuning dvd,and for this reason you see it often.

dusan147
22nd July, 2010, 01:00 PM
rsibiza
I use ECM2001 6.3 for viewing of tuning files and corresponding maps... In "Edit map" window is menu "Manual change" and submenu "Interpolation"...
What is the quick way (in one step) for change of shape of map curve from concave (red curve with black cross) to convex (blue thick curve).
By interpolation dialog box I can make only linear change even if I use "Curve surface" option...
Is a solution some kind of midpoint definition (multistep curve definition)?