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junebug
7th September, 2010, 04:06 AM
I have been trying to find out what an FSS Derate is on my ISX. I have called both Cummins Corp and several techs at their distributors, and noone seems to know what this is. The engine will go into a derate (feels like a stall) when under full throttle. It does it in every gear, but is only noticeable in top few gears. I'm getting the FSS Derate from the user fueling state on the log that I took going down the road. The engine state monitor just says Fuel System Derate, but we have no idea why. The fuel press is around 290 and doesn't fall off during the derate. Boost pressure is at 30psi and doesn't fall off. If anyone has an idea it would be great. 600hp should pull a hill.

mondao
7th September, 2010, 05:18 AM
something related here Derate , this is a difficult problem to solve in an engine, but has solution
poor acceleration, and engine derate s. A derate is defined as any condition where the electronic control module (ECM) intentionally reduces power output to protect the engine from damage. A simple example of a derate would be when the ECM detects high coolant temperature. The ECM will derate , or reduce, the torque output to protect the engine from damage. Sometimes these derate s do not log fault codes, making performance complaints difficult to troubleshoot.

electronic service tool has provided a monitor parameter called ?User Fuel ing State? for all engine applications released since 1995. This monitor parameter may also be called ?Engine Operating State? on newer engine applications. This parameter indicates, in real-time, what governor, system , or derate is presently controlling the engine, and can be monitored using INSITE? electronic service tool Data Monitor/Logger feature. Many of the parameters indicate normal operation, but others can help isolate causes of poor engine performance. Examples include:

?If the engine is idling, User Fuel ing State (Engine Operating State) indicates ?Low Speed Governor?.
?If the engine is running with an engine protection fault code, User Fuel ing State (Engine Operating State) indicates ?Engine Protection?.
?If the engine is running at high altitude, User Fuel ing State (Engine Operating State) indicates ?Altitude Derate ?.
?If the engine is running full power on the torque curve, User Fuel ing State (Engine Operating State) indicates ?Maximum Throttle?.
?If a boost leak occurs and the engine can not get enough oxygen (boost pressure) for proper combustion, User Fuel ing State (Engine Operating State) indicates ?Air Fuel Control Derate ?.

mondao
7th September, 2010, 07:17 AM
Boost pressure is at 30psi? psi maximum full load

hercamp
7th September, 2010, 07:23 AM
well...another problems that Ive seen ..is when ecm is calibrate with top 2 transmitions properties....and...ecm only let you get 1850rpms max..in hight range...so to know some else about your ecm or youre truck ..has ever been calibrated?..your truck has top2 transmition?? maybe automatic top2? or wich model is the ecm? ..can u upload cal with calterm..and let us take a look of cal?..

well...I hope that info help u.

jctech
8th September, 2010, 09:28 PM
An FSS derate is when the fuel system senses a problem and derates the torque output. The problem may be within the acceptable parameters so does not create a fault.
To find this issue check measured against commanded parameters.
fuel pressure, metering and timing actuators, EGR system etc
It will not be boost pressure as that is an AFC derate.

Is 290 enough, from memory should be around 320-350............its been a while so I will stand corrected if this info is incorrect.

Hope this helps
John

doloman
9th September, 2010, 12:25 AM
Where did the data, if Insite, then let log file when derate mode. We see.

dieselman77
9th September, 2010, 02:49 AM
WHAT IS THE TEMPERATURE OF THE FUEL ? I HAVE SEEN THE ISX DERATE WHEN THE FUEL IS TO HOT I BELIEVE ITS 180-200 DEGREES FARENHEIGHT IT CANNOT COMPLETELY COMBUST SO IT DERATES THE ENGINE UNTIL THE FUEL COOLS DOWN IF ITS UNDER HEAVY LOAD THE ENGINE IS GETTING HOT AND THE FUEL IS NOT GETTING COOLED FAST ENOUGH FOR COMPLETE COMBUSTION HOPE THIS HELPS HAVE A GOOD ONE AND I BELEIVE THE ISX FUEL PRESSURE SHOULD BE @ 320 PSI LIKE JTECH SAID EARLIER HAVE A GOOD DAY LET US ALL KNOW IF YOU FIX THE PROBLEM IF YOU CALL CUMMINS OR ANY DEALER THEY WILL NOT TELL YOU ANTHING OVER THE PHONE THEY WANT YOU TO BRING IT IN SO THEY CAN CHARGE YOU BIG MONEY TO FIX IT IN FIVE MINUTES

dieselman77
10th September, 2010, 01:30 PM
JUNEBUG DID YOU CHECK THE CALIBRATION REVISIONS ON THE INCAL DISK ? SOMETIMES THEY HAVE TO FIX A BUG IN THE ORIGINAL PROGRAM AND YOU HAVE TO REFLASH THE ECM WITH THE NEW CALIBRATION I HAVE SEEN THAT PROBLEM WITH A FEW OF THE ISL/ISX ENGINES IF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO AN INCAL DISK CHECK THAT OUT IT MAY HELP YOU ALOT HAVE A GOOD ONE HOPE THIS HELPS HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY WORK DONE TO THE ENGINE BEFORE ? MAYBE AND INJECTOR, NOZZLE, MERETING CUP POSSIBLY THEY DID NOT TORQUE THE PARTS PROPERLY OR THEY DID NOT CONNECT THE HARNESSES ALL THE WAY

jctech
11th September, 2010, 12:31 AM
JUNEBUG DID YOU CHECK THE CALIBRATION REVISIONS ON THE INCAL DISK ? SOMETIMES THEY HAVE TO FIX A BUG IN THE ORIGINAL PROGRAM AND YOU HAVE TO REFLASH THE ECM WITH THE NEW CALIBRATION I HAVE SEEN THAT PROBLEM WITH A FEW OF THE ISL/ISX ENGINES IF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO AN INCAL DISK CHECK THAT OUT IT MAY HELP YOU ALOT HAVE A GOOD ONE HOPE THIS HELPS HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY WORK DONE TO THE ENGINE BEFORE ? MAYBE AND INJECTOR, NOZZLE, MERETING CUP POSSIBLY THEY DID NOT TORQUE THE PARTS PROPERLY OR THEY DID NOT CONNECT THE HARNESSES ALL THE WAY

You do not need a calibration disk, the ECM calibration code is stamped on the ECM dataplate, "EC Code" xxxxxx.xx,
Your ECM calibration code is the letter and number combination without the two numbers after the decimal point, that is the revision level.
go to https://insite.cummins.com/insite/tools/incal/index.html and click on ECM calibration history and type in your ECM code, you will find all the revision levels of your ECM cal. code and a description of what changes were made, if those chabges were significant, or warrantable (at that time).

Hope this helps
John

dieselman77
11th September, 2010, 04:16 AM
SORRY FOR TRYING TO HELP THE GUY OUT I HAD NO IDEA YOU COULD DO IT FROMT HE WEBSITE WE USUALLY JUST LOAD THE DISK AND FIND IT THERE NO NEED FOR HOSTILITY JUST TRYING TO HELP EACH OTHER OUT THATS ALL

gmb45
11th September, 2010, 04:46 AM
can you turn off the caps m8, many people see it as shouting, cheers :)

integraph
12th September, 2010, 03:09 AM
... AND I BELEIVE THE ISX FUEL PRESSURE SHOULD BE @ 320 PSI LIKE JTECH SAID EARLIER

Guys, ISX fuel pressure @ idle is 250 psi. Should be near 290 psi @ full throttle, and will throw a code if it reaches 300 psi.

jctech
12th September, 2010, 01:35 PM
SORRY FOR TRYING TO HELP THE GUY OUT I HAD NO IDEA YOU COULD DO IT FROMT HE WEBSITE WE USUALLY JUST LOAD THE DISK AND FIND IT THERE NO NEED FOR HOSTILITY JUST TRYING TO HELP EACH OTHER OUT THATS ALL

Sorry if I came across as being hostile, just trying to help like everyone else on here, up to date InCal discs are rare for people outside of Cummins, so just pointing out where up to date info can be found

dieselman77
12th September, 2010, 06:07 PM
Just trying to be helpful as well but he can find a fairly new incal cd on the site and use it thats all i was trying to say i have used the one from april on here quite a few times and it has been a life saver

hercamp
13th September, 2010, 05:32 AM
maybe this help u ..problem is in spanish.:coffin:

sca.net
11th December, 2010, 03:29 PM
Does anybody has manuals to Cummins engine ISX CM870 ESN: 79095167?
Electronic diagnostic and trubleshooting manuals if posible Please?
All fault codes to this.
finally everything about helps.

Here I Uploaded the Wiring diagram to this engine. (in pdf and flash movile) But I need everithing about.
:ridinghorse:

jctech
14th December, 2010, 01:32 PM
Does anybody has manuals to Cummins engine ISX CM870 ESN: 79095167?
Electronic diagnostic and trubleshooting manuals if posible Please?
All fault codes to this.
finally everything about helps.

Here I Uploaded the Wiring diagram to this engine. (in pdf and flash movile) But I need everithing about.
:ridinghorse:


The manual you want is here, Thanks ZDF.
http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/f166/cummins-service-manuals-74128/index5.html#post817516

sca.net
14th December, 2010, 02:27 PM
The manual you want is here, Thanks ZDF.
http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/f166/cummins-service-manuals-74128/index5.html#post817516
Thank you, but I Downloaded that manual and it doesn't have the 411 TF fault code.
So I think this ISX-CM870 Requires a dedicated manual of Trouble Shooting fault codes.:hmmmm2:

I'll continue the search.
:burnout:

jctech
14th December, 2010, 02:40 PM
Thank you, but I Downloaded that manual and it doesn't have the 411 TF fault code.
So I think this ISX-CM870 Requires a dedicated manual of Trouble Shooting fault codes.:hmmmm2:

I'll continue the search.
:burnout:

The fault code troubleshooting is part of the Insite program, you can right click through to troubleshooting steps from the fault code screen in Insite, or go to the Intelect/Insite/FIS folder and open the choose_en file navigate to your engine model and choose troubleshoot fault codes

frank antonio ruiz de la
24th March, 2011, 06:34 AM
that this my friends I'm looking for the manuals for the ISX cm870 egr, thank you very much

hanzem evr
24th May, 2011, 08:51 PM
Hi guys please help
I have problem with truck engine type isx400 cm570
the engine work with good condition and no active code found by INSITE but i cant start engine with out adding some gasoline in breather (start aid fluid) So the start motor
changed with new and batters also , this info during starting
175 rpm , fuel pressure 15 psi, battery volt 11.5v, no active code, fuel pump work, no air in fuel, fuel pressure regulator not creaked or damaged o-rings ,

So what the problem with difficult starting ?????

jctech
24th May, 2011, 10:42 PM
Hi guys please help
I have problem with truck engine type isx400 cm570
the engine work with good condition and no active code found by INSITE but i cant start engine with out adding some gasoline in breather (start aid fluid) So the start motor
changed with new and batters also , this info during starting
175 rpm , fuel pressure 15 psi, battery volt 11.5v, no active code, fuel pump work, no air in fuel, fuel pressure regulator not creaked or damaged o-rings ,

So what the problem with difficult starting ?????

What is timing rail pressure when cranking?
Try starting with timing rail pressure sensor unplugged
Any white smoke when engine is cold?

mondao
25th May, 2011, 04:09 AM
Hi guys please help
I have problem with truck engine type isx400 cm570
the engine work with good condition and no active code found by INSITE but i cant start engine with out adding some gasoline in breather (start aid fluid) So the start motor
changed with new and batters also , this info during starting
175 rpm , fuel pressure 15 psi, battery volt 11.5v, no active code, fuel pump work, no air in fuel, fuel pressure regulator not creaked or damaged o-rings ,

So what the problem with difficult starting ?????
he minimum rail fuel pressure the fuel pump would need to start is 689 kPa [100 psi]+ for ISX CM570 and ISX Signature engines. The minimum cranking speed is 130 rpm with a minimum cranking time of 10 seconds

hanzem evr
25th May, 2011, 05:26 AM
OK thanks for respond
but where is the problem ?? is it leak or bad o-rings ???

mondao
25th May, 2011, 06:27 AM
OK thanks for respond
but where is the problem ?? is it leak or bad o-rings ???
fixing the fuel shutoff solenoid it works fine

hanzem evr
25th May, 2011, 08:09 PM
My friends
the cranking rpm is 175 but the rail pressure is 15 psi, i know that not good, but where is the problem ???
i found other thing , when i turn switch on , the fuel pump still running a long time about tow minutes.
as i said , the engine in good condition, no smoke, no knock no blowby , just hard to start.
note: when cranking i heard clicking sound in actuators and the fuel return flow a lot of fuel
sorry for bad English
thanks for help

jctech
25th May, 2011, 11:04 PM
My friends
the cranking rpm is 175 but the rail pressure is 15 psi, i know that not good, but where is the problem ???
i found other thing , when i turn switch on , the fuel pump still running a long time about tow minutes.
as i said , the engine in good condition, no smoke, no knock no blowby , just hard to start.
note: when cranking i heard clicking sound in actuators and the fuel return flow a lot of fuel
sorry for bad English
thanks for help

Check for air in the fuel, the procedure is in the manual, on another thread on DK

mondao
26th May, 2011, 06:01 AM
My friends
the cranking rpm is 175 but the rail pressure is 15 psi, i know that not good, but where is the problem ???
i found other thing , when i turn switch on , the fuel pump still running a long time about tow minutes.
as i said , the engine in good condition, no smoke, no knock no blowby , just hard to start.
note: when cranking i heard clicking sound in actuators and the fuel return flow a lot of fuel
sorry for bad English
thanks for help
sounds like you have some fuel drain-back, surging issues on start up are generally due to air in the fuel, if your priming pump is working then try cycling it 2-3 times before starting and see if that helps? If priming pump is not working then once you start it after 30seconds or so rev engine up to full noise and back to idle several times to purge out any air in fuel system. If either of these seem to help then check for a leak around priming pump mount
also you can remove the IFSM,
here's a little diagram of the fuel system, just follow the steps
so you can find the problem. (internet explorer to open file)
good luck friend

hanzem evr
26th May, 2011, 06:07 AM
Check for air in the fuel, the procedure is in the manual, on another thread on DK
No air in fuel and the fuel priming pump work properly also the fuel rail press at idle is 290 psi,
but when cranking only 15 psi .

hanzem evr
29th May, 2011, 07:40 PM
any one heard about problem like this , any other idea ???

thanks in advance