Herbal Medicines Directive

[Evastar]

Forbidden healing (http://www.savenaturalhealth.eu/)

if people can sign the petition to stop the eu from banning herbal medicines, that would be great :)

[Bulld0g]

Done Eva :)

[nara]

Sorry Eva. If herbal medicines can satisfy the license requirements to prove themselves safe and effective they will be ok.

If they can't, they will be banned. This is a public safety issue.

[Evastar]

Sorry Eva. If herbal medicines can satisfy the license requirements to prove themselves safe and effective they will be ok.

If they can't, they will be banned. This is a public safety issue.

some of these remedies have been used for thousands of years and shouldn't come under the same licensing laws as synthetic drugs.

what it's really about is the money the pharmaceutical companies are losing by people having a choice. i mean if it was about public safety cigarettes would have been banned long ago. but both the multi billion pound pharmacetical and tobacco industries can afford lobbyists and 'donations' to keep things going their way.

and as for proving themselves safe, look at all the drugs scares they have had over the last number of years, products they licence and then withdraw from the market.

[evs]

some of these remedies have been used for thousands of years and shouldn't come under the same licensing laws as synthetic drugs.


what it's really about is the money the pharmaceutical companies are losing by people having a choice. i mean if it was about public safety cigarettes would have been banned long ago. but both the multi billion pound pharmacetical and tobacco industries can afford lobbyists and 'donations' to keep things going their way.

and as for proving themselves safe, look at all the drugs scares they have had over the last number of years, products they licence and then withdraw from the market.




Got to agree, look at thalidomide people and ask how they managed to develop like they did. It wasn?t through there parents taking natural drugs.

There?s a guy on the news only yesterday fighting for legal aid to take a pharmaceutical company to court for compensation because of the drugs that his mother took that left him disfigured.

Natural remedies have no side affects unlike synthetic drugs.
Petition signed.

[nara]

Natural remedies have no side affects unlike synthetic drugs.

Sorry , but that is nonsense.

Here's some reading for you.

Herbal Side Effects and Warnings (http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbsafety.html)

Side Effects of Herbal Medicine | LoveToKnow (http://herbs.lovetoknow.com/Side_Effects_of_Herbal_Medicine)

Negative Side Effects of Herbal Medicine | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/facts_4829731_negative-side-effects-herbal-medicine.html)

[SouthernComfort]

Sorry Eva. If herbal medicines can satisfy the license requirements to prove themselves safe and effective they will be ok.

If they can't, they will be banned. This is a public safety issue.

We both know that's not true, in a country where tobacco is legal yet cannabis is illegal, Safety is of little concern.

It is unclear if the ANH supports the legalization of cannabis, I support anyone willing to investigate the benefits of ALL natural remedies. Most groups are very selective.

[Evastar]

Sorry , but that is nonsense.

Here's some reading for you.

Herbal Side Effects and Warnings (http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbsafety.html)

Side Effects of Herbal Medicine | LoveToKnow (http://herbs.lovetoknow.com/Side_Effects_of_Herbal_Medicine)

Negative Side Effects of Herbal Medicine | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/facts_4829731_negative-side-effects-herbal-medicine.html)

yes some herbal medicines can have side effects, so do synthetic drugs.

and as these herbal medicines are around for so long most side effects are already well documented. so it's not like creating a new synthetic drug that needs to be tested for years because they don't know what it does.

just because you choose not to use them or believe in their efficacy doesn't mean that the choice of using them should be taken away from the millions that do want to use them.

[berley]

.... done :)

[evs]

Sorry , but that is nonsense.

Here's some reading for you.

Herbal Side Effects and Warnings (http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbsafety.html)

Side Effects of Herbal Medicine | LoveToKnow (http://herbs.lovetoknow.com/Side_Effects_of_Herbal_Medicine)

Negative Side Effects of Herbal Medicine | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/facts_4829731_negative-side-effects-herbal-medicine.html)


Looks like I was wrong, it seems they can have an adverse effect. But I had to laugh when I read your links as most used the word may cause adverse effects.

I had to laugh when it suggested that Celery may increase the risk of bleeding.


Yeah if some one smacked you in the face with a bunch of it. :laugh:


But when you read Mims book of prescription drugs they use the word can cause adverse effects which everyone knows is true.

So I think there is a place for both, that?s why I can?t disregard one over another as easy as you can.

[Snowy79]

Trust me if the Pharmaceutical companies were losing money to Herbal Remedies they'd soon buy out the Companies or sell the stuff themselves. Oh wait a minute they do already.

[mtv1]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/good.gif am i bovvered lol

[nara]

But when you read Mims book of prescription drugs they use the word can cause adverse effects which everyone knows is true.

I quite agree. (though I prefer the BNF) As a scientific database they have the research data to be more specific.


that's why I can't disregard one over another as easy as you can.

I don't disregard. Stay focused. Any herbal remedy that is licensed, and there are plenty of them, is ok by me.


I had to laugh when it suggested that Celery may increase the risk of bleeding.

Yeah if some one smacked you in the face with a bunch of it. :laugh:

Don't laugh.Celery seeds can cause uterine bleeding in pregnant women.

Celery itself can increase the risk of bleeding when taken in conjunction with other anticoagulants such as aspirin.

[chroma]

Signed, but only cause i like using fennel seeds for cooking :)

[Grizz]

Signed cause i hate moneygrubbing pharmaceutical companies.

[patkins]

Done. Thanks for the oppertunity.

[reddevil157]

Done, cause I believe WE should have the choice, which medicine we use.

[drawflex]

what a load of shit... lots of the drugs used now are derrived from, or synthesised using natural sources.. the ones that are any good are just called... medicine.

And natural doesn't mean safe, or pure by any means.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/29/article-1090404-0126C2B9000004B0-997_233x352.jpg

[nara]

:goodpost:



.. the ones that are any good are just called... medicine.

And natural doesn't mean safe, or pure by any means.



Two excellent points!

[evs]

what a load of shit... lots of the drugs used now are derrived from, or synthesised using natural sources.. the ones that are any good are just called... medicine.

And natural doesn't mean safe, or pure by any means.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/29/article-1090404-0126C2B9000004B0-997_233x352.jpg



Google this
How many people die from prescription drugs?
Then Google this.
How many people die from herbal remedies?
Then take in to account the chemicals added to prescription drugs.
I think I know which one I?d want.

[nara]

Then take in to account the chemicals added to prescription drugs.

Did you do science at school?

[reddevil157]

nara, you seem dead against this... do you not think ppl should have the choice to use alternative medicine if they wish ?

[barrowmanandrew]

well i've been sitting on the fence on this one, listening to arguements for and against.

i've been swayed and decided to sign.

reasons:

1. i accept there may be dangers, but there are far more dangerous things legally allowed around now.
ie. smokes, booze, cars, all of which will no doubt kill a staggering amount more than any herbal remedy.

2. passing the stringent tests does not guarantee saftey, as was previously mention. falidimide....
there are also other medicines that are addictive, like sleeping pill, anti deppressents....
i think these can cause real harm too.

3. i'm ~~~~in sick of the EU telling us what we can and cannot do....
we are ~~~~in adults ffs, leave us alone.......

on balance,
i feel its not that much of a problem in the grand scheme of the things.
banning is a bit draconian...
maybe some sort of comprimise where the medicines carry warnings or summit.( they might already do it, i don't know)

as has been posted ,
if public health is their main concern, the tobacco should be their top priority.....

[nara]

nara, you seem dead against this... do you not think ppl should have the choice to use alternative medicine if they wish ?

Of course they should. A lot of herbal medicines are beneficial and many mainstream drugs are based upon them. Many herbal medicines are useless, but essentially harmless. Some are positively dangerous.

The whole marketplace for herbal remedies is unregulated. It's a goldmine for snake-oil peddlers and quacks.

If a product is going to advertise itself as beneficial, it shouldn't be worried about submitting itself for testing.

[tshirtman]

Google this
How many people die from prescription drugs?
Then Google this.
How many people die from herbal remedies?
Then take in to account the chemicals added to prescription drugs.
I think I know which one I?d want.

and you could turn that on it's head,

how many people are cured with prescription drugs,
and how many people are cured with herbal remedies

and just because prescription drugs may have severe side effects, doesn't necessarily mean there bad,
take Chemotherapy for example.

[Evastar]

i haven't said anywhere that i don't agree with prescription medicine, and i haven't for one minute suggested that people take herbal medicine exclusively, what i am saying is that people should have the choice.

and if you watch the video on the link you will see that a lot of companies can't afford to undergo the testing required to licence something as a drug.

as i already said if a product is around thousands of years they will already know if there are major side effects from it.

[tshirtman]

I agree some herbal remedies are very effective, and i have used some myself, sulphur proved very effective for a number of ails,

but I think it's unwise that certain people criticize all prescription drugs, where would we be without antibiotics

[Evastar]

I agree some herbal remedies are very effective, and i have used some myself, sulphur proved very effective for a number of ails,

but I think it's unwise that certain people criticize all prescription drugs, where would we be without antibiotics

unfortunately we could end up without antibiotics pretty soon, as more and more strains of bacteria develop resistance to them, look at mrsa and c. diff, very hard to treat and kill lots of people. :(

[chroma]

unfortunately we could end up without antibiotics pretty soon, as more and more strains of bacteria develop resistance to them, look at mrsa and c. diff, very hard to treat and kill lots of people. :(

Gets worse than that, i read a recent study where 1 in 4 cuts of meat in Supermarkets had antibiotic resistant strains in them because industrial farmers feed animals up on antibiotics :/

[Snowy79]

I'm all for licensed Herbal Medicines just out of safety and also to cut out the quacks. If the herbs are proven to work I don't see the problem with them being given the green light.

The big issue you have at the moment is a lot of the info out there is paid for by the relevent companies with an interest in it. I can safely say that if a trial of a medicine says it is safe and beneficial the Laboratory or Professor that puts his/her name to is is someway linked to the producers. Whether it is a sponsorship of a wing of a Hospital or grant to investigate something not linked and the same goes for Herbal and Homeo Pathetic Remedies.

The only difference is if a Licensed Medicine screws you up you have some comeback. If a Herbal Remedy screws you up who do you blame. Add to this you don't know the purity or source of the Herb.

If licensing comes in and Herbs can be proven to be effective you can guarantee it will be produced, marketed and sold just as it is today, the only difference is the Herbs that don't work will no longer be sold and the public will have a more informed selection and not waste money on Snake Oil Remedies.

[cactikid]

i like having a choice and the wonders of chinese medicines.i also like my ginseng and garlic pills,and you know where they can stick their straight cucumber lol

[Canker_Canison]

i like having a choice and the wonders of chinese medicines.i also like my ginseng and garlic pills,and you know where they can stick their straight cucumber lol


But then how many chinese remedies use parts from endangered animals. Does tiger penis really help with your libido?

This is the side that needs the regulation. When it comes down to it a lot of these Herbal medicines are nothing more than faith healers.

[nara]

i like having a choice and the wonders of chinese medicines.i also like my ginseng and garlic pills,and you know where they can stick their straight cucumber lol

Ah, the wonders of Chinese medicine!


BBC News | HEALTH | Chinese medicines 'still a danger' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1567212.stm)

Be Wary of Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine" (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html)

Dangerous Chinese Herbs | LIVESTRONG.COM (http://www.livestrong.com/article/110523-dangerous-chinese-herbs/)

[Snowy79]

Don't forget water also has side effects. Drink too much and you can also die so even one of the most natural things there is can kill.

[nara]

Don't forget water also has side effects. Drink too much and you can also die so even one of the most natural things there is can kill.

It's not the chemical composition of water that kills you if taken in excess.

It's the resulting electrolytic imbalance that's fatal.

[drawflex]

i like having a choice and the wonders of chinese medicines.i also like my ginseng and garlic pills,and you know where they can stick their straight cucumber lol

choice based on what information ?

No regulation => no set research/testing protocol => no reliable bio-chem info => no clear facts as to base 'choice' on.

Isn't that what the call a 'paradox' ?

EDIT : Went past chinese 'herbal remedy' shop in Luton arndale centre today called HERBS ( used to be called Dr. HERBS, but think they got into trouble for wrongly using Dr. :D ), and they were advertising a remedy for baldness... mabye someone should've told the likes of shane warne and michael vaughn about this mystery remedy, before they went and got someone else's hair woven into their scalps one strand at a time ?

[Snowy79]

It's not very often you get people signing a petition to allow themselves to be ripped off by bogus treatments. I'm not saying they all are, as I realise a lot of herbs do treat certain conditions but surely it is in everyone's interest to ensure that if a treatment is sold it has been proven to work and all known side affects are listed. Why allow someone to sell you something that is of no use? It's like campaining to allow cowboy builders.

[cactikid]

update.
The 7 Most Dangerous Lies Your Doctor is Telling You (http://hsionlineorders.net/video/7_Most/?pco=LHSIM455&eco=LHSIM456)
maybe a bit of an eye opener anybody in the medical field care to comment.

[drawflex]

update.
The 7 Most Dangerous Lies Your Doctor is Telling You (http://hsionlineorders.net/video/7_Most/?pco=LHSIM455&eco=LHSIM456)
maybe a bit of an eye opener anybody in the medical field care to comment.

An eye opener to the fact that some people are so frickin gullible.

PM me your bank acc no / sort code and 4-digit pin number.. and i'll send you one of these tumour busting, anti-cancer hats.

http://derekpgilbert.com/wp-content/uploads/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[drawflex]

If you wanna read about some real breakthroughs in cancer research ... Here you go (http://www.newscientist.com/search?query=cancer&sortby=rbpubdate)

[casajencol]

how can the eu ban natural plants!!! JOKE

[Evastar]

i did a bit of googling on your post cacti, and it does sound like they are researching AGS, but it will take another few years of trials etc before it gets licensed, this is what i found out:


Sapogenin (AGS)

What is it?

Aglycon Sapogenins (Dammarane Sapogenins) are extraordinarily effective anti-neoplastic (cancer fighting) substances.

What does it do?

The well known herb Panax ginseng, contains many substances called ginsenosides, which chemically are glycosides. Each ginsenoside contains a sugar and a non-sugar component. The non-sugar component is called an Aglycon Sapogenin (AGS)or Dammarane Sapogenin. There are many different kinds of these Aglycon Sapogenins, but the kind designated by the letter "R" have some remarkable properties. Once in the body they are broken down into Protopanaxadiol (PPD) and Protopanaxatriol (PPT.) There is also a metabolite called M1.

It turns out that these particular Aglycon Sapogenins are extraordinarily effective anti-neoplastic (cancer fighting) substances. Ginseng itself has no such property, probably because these substances are not concentrated enough in Ginseng root. Ginseng itself is fairly expensive but it takes 100 pounds of ginseng to get just 1 gram (a 30th of an ounce) of Algycon Ginsenoside. Some glycon ginsenosides actually promote tumor growth so they must be removed.

Among the benefits of Algycon Sapogenin are:

1. Near zero toxicity.

2. Effective against multiple drug resistant (MDR) cancers for which there is no treatment. The problem with cancers is as they multiply they mutate continuously. Many different genotypes may exist in one tumor and a drug may address only certain genotypes. The mutants are also selected to be resistant to the chemotherapy drug. AGS induces cancer cell death (apoptosis) by multiple pathways. AGS can reverse multiple drug resistance by inhibiting P-gp protein.

3. Enhances the therapeutic index of presently available chemotherapy drugs (i.e. Paclitaxel or mitoxanthrone) from between 1,000 to 20,000 times MDR Associated Chemosensitivity Enhancement (MACE).

4.Broad anticancer effectiveness on a wide range of cancer tissues (i.e. Glioblastoma SF 120, Prostate Cancer LNCaP, Breast Cancer MCF7, Melanoma B 16, Gastric Cancer KATO III, Lung Carcinoma H460 & H838.) In vitro (test tube) studies showed cytotoxicity to all cancer cell lines with zero survival at 40 micromolar concentration.

5. Crosses the blood brain barrier for effective treatment of brain cancer. In vitro animal implanted animal studies showed more than 45% survival at 45 days vs 0% for the controls after 18 days.

6. Attacks only cancer cells with no harm to normal cells. Among its effects on cancer cells is to arrest proliferation at the G1 stage. Induce cancer cells into benign differentiation. Decrease the rate of carcinogen formation by suppressing the functions of the P450 enzyme system. Competing with the estrogen receptor and inhibiting cell growth from estrogen stimulation.

One naturopathic doctor started using it in 1999 on 15 cancer patients who had not responded to other therapy. He says that 13 of them are still alive.

Another M.D. treating 15 patients with end stage cancer says that 85% are enjoying a good quality of life with diminished pain and more energy.

Another doctor who invented the protocol is following pancreatic cancer patients who typically live only 40 to 90 days after diagnosis. He says all are alive and enjoying a surprisingly good quality of life several months later.

Drug companies are working on a patentable version of this plant extract (one is called PBD-2131) but it is likely going to be the usual long process before it gains approval. The natural version works now.

For more information see Dammarane Sapogenins.

Examples of products:

Careseng BFG

Careseng SG2

Quite extensive research appears to have been carried out in China although there does not appear to be any scientific human trials carried out.
www.sapogenin.info (http://www.sapogenin.info/)

The company, Pegasus Pharmaceuticals, appears to have received backing from the Canadian government, so it is probably a bona fide product which appears to enhance the effect of chemotherapy as well.


PPG Inc. (http://ppginco.com/eng/index.html)


so it does sound like there is something to it, wait and see i guess :)