ISX EGR COOLER & EGR ISSUES

[pbateman]

I'm starting this thread here to see if anyone out there is experiencing the same things our shops are running into with the newer 2009 and up ISX engines with the EGR Coolers and EGR valves issues. I have noticed over the past month in a half we have had about 10 new ISX engines where either the EGR valve has failed or the EGR Cooler has failed . These engines range in the low 100,000 to 200,000 mile range. I've been trying to research on line about any other issues like this to see what the possible issue could be and have had no luck. I know when it comes to recalls on bad parts its almost virtually nill to find anything on line or the manufacture wanting to fess up they produced a bad product. So any thoughts or recommendations would be greatful.

[hercamp]

maybe I can help you with some info about that..i know many people that works on that . PM

[mondao]

I would like to know how to convert a cm871 a cm570, someone has an idea what has to be replaced:hmmmm2:
thanks

[zandokan]

The regulation was initially considered in 2008 and requires fleets that operate in California to reduce diesel truck and bus emissions by retrofitting or replacing existing engines. Amendments were considered in December 2010 to provide more time for fleets to comply. The amended regulation would require installation of PM retrofits beginning January 1, 2012 and replacement of older trucks starting January 1, 2015. By January 1, 2023, nearly all vehicles would need to have 2010 model year engines or equivalent.
Care for Environment
Even though environmental issues like pollution and global warming are big problems - there are lots of little things you can do to pitch in and keep the planet healthy.
please:driver:

[pbateman]

hercamp what thoughts do you have about my above post on the issues with the EGR coolers and EGR Valves on the newer ISX trucks. I'm seeing way to many failures and it's not replacing the items only one time I have had to do it a couple of times to a few different trucks

[optimum cetane]

yes it would be nice for a quick fix and cheap, but there is none. you want to resolve your EGR valve and cooler issues, i suggest getting them deleted from your ecm.

[optimum cetane]

Hercamp i would also like to hear your thoughts

many thanks in advance

[ricz]

I would like to know how to convert a cm871 a cm570, someone has an idea what has to be replaced:hmmmm2:
thanks

I've seen it done before, Pdi sells a kit.
But these are the things that I "THINK" needs to be done
You need to install freeze plugs where the ports on the block for the egr cooler coolant flow goes.
You need to plug up the fuel supply for the aftertreatment injector.

And you need this parts from a cm570:

Thermostat housing.
Turbo and exhaust manifold.
Exhaut pipe behind turbo ( I think they have a different flange)
Intake elbow that bolts up to the head.
Reflash the computer to cm570 or possibly a cm570 ecm. (you need to delete the vgt turbo actuator, aftertreat injection sensors, egr differential sensors, egr temp sensor, etc.)
And maybe a cm570 engine harness.

This is just a guesstimate. :afraid:

[ricz]

I'm starting this thread here to see if anyone out there is experiencing the same things our shops are running into with the newer 2009 and up ISX engines with the EGR Coolers and EGR valves issues. I have noticed over the past month in a half we have had about 10 new ISX engines where either the EGR valve has failed or the EGR Cooler has failed . These engines range in the low 100,000 to 200,000 mile range. I've been trying to research on line about any other issues like this to see what the possible issue could be and have had no luck. I know when it comes to recalls on bad parts its almost virtually nill to find anything on line or the manufacture wanting to fess up they produced a bad product. So any thoughts or recommendations would be greatful.


The isx has had egr and egr cooler problems since they came equiped with them.
The egr cooler is badly designed. The egr its self most of the time its not bad, Its just the egr positioning sensor/actuator goes bad. But unfortunately they don't sell that section of the egr separated.:afraid:
In my opinion cummins and the other manufacturers desing parts to eventually fail (most of the time they fail too often.)
Unfortunately this is hurting the owner operators and mechanics. The only viable solution its to get rid of the emmissions equipment or get a pre 2003 engine.

[mondao]

I've seen it done before, Pdi sells a kit.
But these are the things that I "THINK" needs to be done
You need to install freeze plugs where the ports on the block for the egr cooler coolant flow goes.
You need to plug up the fuel supply for the aftertreatment injector.

And you need this parts from a cm570:

Thermostat housing.
Turbo and exhaust manifold.
Exhaut pipe behind turbo ( I think they have a different flange)
Intake elbow that bolts up to the head.
Reflash the computer to cm570 or possibly a cm570 ecm. (you need to delete the vgt turbo actuator, aftertreat injection sensors, egr differential sensors, egr temp sensor, etc.)
And maybe a cm570 engine harness.

This is just a guesstimate. :afraid:
Thank you for your attention.amigo

[jctech]

I'm starting this thread here to see if anyone out there is experiencing the same things our shops are running into with the newer 2009 and up ISX engines with the EGR Coolers and EGR valves issues. I have noticed over the past month in a half we have had about 10 new ISX engines where either the EGR valve has failed or the EGR Cooler has failed . These engines range in the low 100,000 to 200,000 mile range. I've been trying to research on line about any other issues like this to see what the possible issue could be and have had no luck. I know when it comes to recalls on bad parts its almost virtually nill to find anything on line or the manufacture wanting to fess up they produced a bad product. So any thoughts or recommendations would be greatful.

If you are having repeat failures, get a Cummins Distributor involved, not a dealer.
Make sure that you are following the latest published troubleshooting steps.
Make sure that you are following the latest published repair procedures.

Get your Cummins distributor to get their "DFSE" (Distributor Field Support Engineer) involved and raise a "PIR" (Product Incident Report). This documents the failures and gathers all the information required for the factory engineers to work on an issue. The only thing the factory engineers understand is good data, they cannot use parts without all the information about reported fault, troubleshooting steps, Insite work order, and vehicle information being present.
Failure investigation costs a lot of money, so the best presented case is the one that gets worked on.

A good idea would be to get a fleet subscription to QSOL with several of your ISX engine serial numbers, this will give you access to all the relevant parts and service topics.

[pbateman]

Thanks to all the replies will get with Cummins and see what I can come up with because its getting to be a big pain in the butt with trying to find the parts and they always seem to be on national back order

[transinter]

I have a problem with the egr and got tested in insite. and all is well egr valves and turbocharger are usually open.
but data monitoring efficiency EGR cooler unavailable
These codes 2961.2962

thanks for the help

[mondao]

I have a problem with the egr and got tested in insite. and all is well egr valves and turbocharger are usually open.
but data monitoring efficiency EGR cooler unavailable
These codes 2961.2962
thanks for the help
Possible causes of this fault code include:
A fouled EGR cooler.
Failed EGR differential pressure tubes.
A failed EGR valve.
A stuck open turbocharger control valve.
A low reading from the EGR differential pressure sensor.
A low reading for the EGR valve position sensor.
High exhaust temperatures.
Low coolant level.
High coolant temperature.
An incorrect coolant/water mixture.
A stuck closed variable geometry turbocharger.
Note: This fault code will most likely not be active with no load in the shop. The engine must be loaded to trigger this fault code.
code 2961
The ECM detects that the EGR temperature is greater than 274?C [525?F] for more than 5 seconds.
The ECM illuminates the amber CHECK ENGINE light immediately when the diagnostic runs and fails.
The engine torque will be derated up to 40 percent to limit the EGR temperature.
The ECM will turn off the amber CHECK ENGINE light immediately after the EGR temperature drops below 274?C [525?F]
Shop Talk
Verify the electronic control module (ECM) calibration is correct. Check the calibration revision history found on QuickServe? Online for applicable fixes to the calibration stored in the ECM. If necessary, recalibrate the ECM.

[mondao]

CUMMINS ISX REMOVAL OF DPF + EGR

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CUMMINS-ISX-RECON-ECM-CUSTOM-REMOVAL-DPF-EGR-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ200464299744QQptZMotorsQ5f CarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[MDR72]

used the pdi kit in several trucks and have had no problems. the kit pulls the vgt, egr cooler and egr valve and the dpf. may cost a little more than doing it yourself, but it is simply a bolt on.

[mondao]

used the pdi kit in several trucks and have had no problems. the kit pulls the vgt, egr cooler and egr valve and the dpf. may cost a little more than doing it yourself, but it is simply a bolt on.
dpf and egr delete kits,you have the number of kit?

[optimum cetane]

Not much of a kit, just a re-programed ECM, a couple of frost plugs and a few different sized plates to block off doser port, EGR venturi to intake pipe connection and a plate to mount on where the exhuast joined the EGR cooler. That is unless you go with a PDI turbo and exhaust manifold. I would just get the EGR and DPF delete. i have machined a canister with a muffler inside of it to be installed in place of the DPF and catalyst, instead of smashing those two pieces out.

[Siimba]

Try this site for empty DPF canisters and more ECM`s.
J-BALL ECMS items - Get great deals on items on eBay Stores! (http://stores.ebay.com/J-BALL-ECMS?_trksid=p4340.l2563)

Last week I overheard that they are able to remove EGR valve and cooler,VGT turbo and use waste gated turbo and delete EGR sys.

[will12345]

hi all,
not sure if any one here can help me but worth a go.
alright i have just bought a late 2010 kenworth T408SAR
to pull doubles up the hwy it has about 100,000 k's and no power everything mech wise is great just running a 525hp program with 1850fpt any one have a program with a little more hp and 2050 fpt dont wanna go to high coz it already runs warm as it is any help would be appreiciated
many thanks in advance
great forum guys keep up the good work!

[optimum cetane]

hi all,
not sure if any one here can help me but worth a go.
alright i have just bought a late 2010 kenworth T408SAR
to pull doubles up the hwy it has about 100,000 k's and no power everything mech wise is great just running a 525hp program with 1850fpt any one have a program with a little more hp and 2050 fpt dont wanna go to high coz it already runs warm as it is any help would be appreiciated
many thanks in advance
great forum guys keep up the good work!

Willy
engine make mdel and serial # please
:birthday:

[spiderx4]

How much do thoughs egr,dpf,delete kits cost? I have a 08 pete 389 with the isx. I keep getting problems with the dpf, it overheats and derates power all the time. Been to the dealer 9 time in the past 3 months and they cant figure it out. They said its all ok, that its doing regens just fine. I think that damm dpf is just too restrictive and it overheats fast.

[pbateman]

hello Dk friends I see all good post on here about Erg issues and cooler issues and turbo issues. Just fyi had to replace a turbo on a 2008 isx and the issue was is would smoke for the first 100 miles of operation and after the truck got good and warm the issue would correct itself.But after some research I found out that there is an issue with the turbo gate valves in the turbos not opening all the way till after the truck gets good and warm. I also pulled the hump hoses off the air and found oil residue in the tubes and around the swivle neck. But needless to say had to replace the turbo and this cured the issue. What makes it hard is there is no real way to monitor the turbo or run an actual test on the turbo to see if its it operating correctly.Also another issue i posted on the DPF thread is that the aftertreatment injector there are issues with it where it will leak coolant around the injector and cause it to crystallize and cause the aftertreatment injector to malfunction and make it look like there is an issue with the Egr cooler or the egr valve. Hopefully this will be a little bit of helpful information to pass on and help someone this will mess with the fault codes 2961 and 2962.

[spiderx4]

hello Dk friends I see all good post on here about Erg issues and cooler issues and turbo issues. Just fyi had to replace a turbo on a 2008 isx and the issue was is would smoke for the first 100 miles of operation and after the truck got good and warm the issue would correct itself.But after some research I found out that there is an issue with the turbo gate valves in the turbos not opening all the way till after the truck gets good and warm. I also pulled the hump hoses off the air and found oil residue in the tubes and around the swivle neck. But needless to say had to replace the turbo and this cured the issue. What makes it hard is there is no real way to monitor the turbo or run an actual test on the turbo to see if its it operating correctly.Also another issue i posted on the DPF thread is that the aftertreatment injector there are issues with it where it will leak coolant around the injector and cause it to crystallize and cause the aftertreatment injector to malfunction and make it look like there is an issue with the Egr cooler or the egr valve. Hopefully this will be a little bit of helpful information to pass on and help someone this will mess with the fault codes 2961 and 2962.


The dealer told me that the aftertreatment injector is going to become a maintenance item. Meaning its going to have to be replaced by us every so many miles. They are always failing. Mine was all burnt up, wasnt doing regens and clogged up the filter. Been having problems ever since with my exhaust over heating.

[pbateman]

Spiderx4 the Dpf should regen about every 8 to 10 hrs. The big thing here is to check your aftertreatment doser to make sure its cleaned and deleting the dpf from the truck could cause warranty issues with where ever you bought the truck through.this is just a heads up i agree that the dpf is a big headache and they need to come up with a solution to the issues that are arising with it.

[spiderx4]

Anyone have any experience with the newer SCR trucks? Are they any better than the first dpf generation trucks?

[zandokan]

Has anyone had this done?Performance Diesel Inc. (http://www.performancedieselinc.com/applications.html)
I would like to know if this works well, or a waste of money?
any opinion is welcome

[MDR72]

Have a customer who purchased delete kit for both cm871 and cm2250. cm871 kits work very well for both a stock 550 hp egr/vgt delete and higher hrosepower kits. just installed a cm2250 kit and have had several problems mostly with derate. called pdi and we went to pittsburgh to have ecm reprogeammed and to correct derate problems, truck returned and still derates. called again they want us to send ecm to utah so they can reprogram and will send back to us, only problem truck runs everyday and we stripped all afteertreatment off so we cannot even just install orginal ecm, we tried to get them to send us another ecm and return ours but they will sell us another one. so far cm871 all ok, cm2250 give it a bit let them work the bugs out we hope.:beheaded:

[optimum cetane]

How much do thoughs egr,dpf,delete kits cost? I have a 08 pete 389 with the isx. I keep getting problems with the dpf, it overheats and derates power all the time. Been to the dealer 9 time in the past 3 months and they cant figure it out. They said its all ok, that its doing regens just fine. I think that damm dpf is just too restrictive and it overheats fast.

hello, depends where you get and ECM from with the delete programed. but you are looking anywhere between 2000 and 5000 for an ECM, $600 for a blanked out canister (goes inplace of DPF and catalyst) 200-400 for a plug kit. It is money well spent in my opinion and have nothing but good reviews from the customers ive installed them on.
:top:

[ddmech]

Never saw an egr deletion that wasnt a benifit to everyone involved.Kinda like a divorce.

[pbateman]

hey Dk friends just a little heads up was reading all the post here not often I get to sit here and do this. But just keep in mind that by deleting the emissions on the new trucks remember that new emission laws are getting tougher and I've heard talk about issues with straight pipes on trucks and etc that there is a possibility that they are going to pass a law where they will make all trucks go back to an original stock exhaust and emissions and also hear not sure what year but the older trucks are going to become a thing of the past.I know for the truckers in CA its really tough for them because I know they have to go through an extensive inspection every year.I'm also hearing in CA that most fleet owners are putting their trucks on a 4 to 5 year rotation because of the emission laws that are coming up and new ones that will eventually go into effect. Just some food for thought .:listen:

[jctech]

hey Dk friends just a little heads up was reading all the post here not often I get to sit here and do this. But just keep in mind that by deleting the emissions on the new trucks remember that new emission laws are getting tougher and I've heard talk about issues with straight pipes on trucks and etc that there is a possibility that they are going to pass a law where they will make all trucks go back to an original stock exhaust and emissions and also hear not sure what year but the older trucks are going to become a thing of the past.I know for the truckers in CA its really tough for them because I know they have to go through an extensive inspection every year.I'm also hearing in CA that most fleet owners are putting their trucks on a 4 to 5 year rotation because of the emission laws that are coming up and new ones that will eventually go into effect. Just some food for thought .:listen:

The EPA can impose big fines ($50000) on the owner, the mechanic that removed the emissions equipment and the person that wrote the calibration. Simply saying that the calibration is for off road use only is not enough. You will notice that companies (like PDI are) removing the DPF delete info from their websites.

[shisik]

share only in educational purposes )

[juanmnd]

hercamp what thoughts do you have about my above post on the issues with the EGR coolers and EGR Valves on the newer ISX trucks. I'm seeing way to many failures and it's not replacing the items only one time I have had to do it a couple of times to a few different trucks
Yes m8. I heard of problem with a
FAULT CODE 3616
Engine VGT Nozzle Position - Mechanical System Not Responding or Out of Adjustment


Its a late 2009 ISX model and the owner already had to put a lot of money on a new aftercoller, turbo and about this fault code they said it was not going to be easy to find out what the issue was or how to resolve this problem. I think Cummins are making some mistakes when building these enigines.

[jctech]

Yes m8. I heard of problem with a
FAULT CODE 3616
Engine VGT Nozzle Position - Mechanical System Not Responding or Out of Adjustment


Its a late 2009 ISX model and the owner already had to put a lot of money on a new aftercoller, turbo and about this fault code they said it was not going to be easy to find out what the issue was or how to resolve this problem. I think Cummins are making some mistakes when building these enigines.


This fault is usually a broken drive in the actuator, or the slide is sticking.
The new turbocharger and actuator require calibrating after fitting

[juanmnd]

This fault is usually a broken drive in the actuator, or the slide is sticking.
The new turbocharger and actuator require calibrating after fitting
Thanks jctech. I consider this info a lot useful.

[pbateman]

juanmd

My experience has been running into this fault code if I understand you correctly you have replaced the EGR Cooler and the turbo? If there are other faults in the ECM that are in active you will have to follow all the fault trees active or inactive to a T. This will allow you to determine hopefully where the issue first started. Its a pain staking process but unfortunately with insite and the way the new engines are made in one way or another all the sensors are tied together and especially on the new ISX engines if one fault code trips it will mess with several things at one time. I would also take a look at the ECM harness this can be pain staking also I have had several where I have had to pull the harnesses off pull the covering and physically check out each individual wire. Also don't ever count out the possibility of getting a bad part it happens from time to time

[pbateman]

hey fellow Dk friends just wanted to add some info to the DPF issues I have found especially for the newer ISX engines that updating the ECM cals will help solve some of the issues with the DPF systems on the ISX engines. I have noticed since we have been updating our ECM'S were not having as many issues. Just a little FYI not sure for the other engines out there that are using the DPF system.

[Plazmatic]

hello, depends where you get and ECM from with the delete programed. but you are looking anywhere between 2000 and 5000 for an ECM, $600 for a blanked out canister (goes inplace of DPF and catalyst) 200-400 for a plug kit. It is money well spent in my opinion and have nothing but good reviews from the customers ive installed them on.
:top:
Where or who sells a blank DPF canister?? Inbox me or a post reply would be great!! Thanks guys!!