Bonny Jockland

[thered]

As we have a few jocks on here i am wondering your thoughts on alec salmond and the growing talks for scotland to become independant.

we can run a poll if mods want ?

Do you see it as a good thing ?
A bad thing ?
Good idea but wouldnt work?
Or couldnt give a ~~~~ ?

Personally i wouldnt like to see it no real reason just for the tradition that we have in my time always been the United kingdom.

I also see that after a few years of independance we (england)would probably have to bail you out

there may be many english who want to seperate as scotlands economy seems heavily subsidised by us and might see it as a savings cut

your thoughts and a poll would be good

[gmb45]

well do you want a poll adding ?

[thered]

well do you want a poll adding ?

yes that would be great your powers of deduction astound me gmb lol




your thoughts and a poll would be good

[gmb45]

yes that would be great your powers of deduction astound me gmb lol

done coont ;)

[zaphodbb]

personally, i think it would be a bad idea to even start this thread. even simple stuff on here gets hate and venom, and this kind of stuff would only be fuel for the haters on both sides. on this occasion i think its best for everyone to keep their views private. come on guys this is not what dk is about ;)

[gmb45]

hmmmmm will see how it goes first.

[chroma]

Independence, all the way.

We'd wind up having to bail out England in a few years though, not the other way around ;)
Who do you think has all the north sea oil?

Scotland has disproportionate public spending, true, but this would be offset by the oil reserve at least over the sort to mid term.
Whilst Scotland is still highly dependant on its oil reserve it should start to stem the bleeding and begin a process of serious redevelopment, this would allow Scotland to become fully independent and prosperous over a short period of time, say 10 to 15 years, all the while feeling the sting of RBS and HBOS bailouts, once things get back on an even keel there Scotland would be in a far better position to prosper with a sold economy, free from debt.
As it currently stands id expect a 3 to maybe 4 billion deficit each year.
Whilst this sounds like a lot of money, its really only a drop in the bucket in international terms, plow some spending into industry and production and up the GDP by even a percent and this deficit would wind up back in the black ;)

Short term its going to be just as hard as we're facing at present, long term it would work out well, with the caveat that we elect proper leadership to pull it off. without that and it would all go tits up in short order.

[thered]

personally, i think it would be a bad idea to even start this thread. even simple stuff on here gets hate and venom, and this kind of stuff would only be fuel for the haters on both sides. on this occasion i think its best for everyone to keep their views private. come on guys this is not what dk is about ;)

~~~~ you you ~~~~ing **** ***** **** shuT the **** mo ****** lol


i think we at dk are nice and civil and we should see how it pans out there is no reason for anyone to get all defensive and upset

we have rights to opinions and we should all stick to them and not abuse anyone for differing from our own

[xant14]

Independence, all the way.


Who do you think has all the north sea oil?

.

When has England or US give a ~~~~ as to who own it?

Is that weapons of mass destruction I see you harbouring?

[chroma]

When has England or US give a ~~~~ as to who own it?

Is that weapons of mass destruction I see you harbouring?

You been watching me in the shower again?
I'm all for some serious Genital Warfare :p

[xant14]

You been watching me in the shower again?
I'm all for some serious Genital Warfare :p

I ain't going anywhere near your Gareloch heed.

[thered]

Independence, all the way.

We'd wind up having to bail out England in a few years though, not the other way around ;)
Who do you think has all the north sea oil?



You may have a valid point there but as its part of the north sea it is not classed as scottish economy at present

im not going in to in and outs because i have no idea what will happen but i would imagine that if parliament decided to grant independance to scotland then it would want some kind of share in whatever reserves are left

[nara]

Alex Salmond - Good idea. As a politician he can run rings round the Three Stooges in Westminster.

Independence - Bad idea.

[charlie1952]

scotlands oil dont think so fat cats oil fae yank land

[Stuart 0366]

scotlands oil dont think so fat cats oil fae yank land

That may be but the revenue is tasked to Westminster from the produce which I have heard that Mr. Salmond is trying to redirect to the Scottish parliament. Good luck to him cos it never worked since devolution was initiated.

I the revenues from different things were sorted out right then Scotland may stand a chance at independence. If not...here comes that sinking feeling.

I would like to see independence but not at the expense of any potential political repercussions from our neighbours. If it is to be done it isn't just the Scots that need to agree to it in my opinion but the rest of Britain as each has a claim to independence...even England.

[bonus2010]

I'd definitely vote for Scottish independence... not because I think Scotland will be better off. I honestly don't know, don't care either. I think if a country is going to call itself a country, then the people should take the full responsibility to manage their own affairs independently of any other country. I don?t know of any country outside of the UK where this occurs.

I?ve been impressed with the support for the Scottish National Party. Until Scotland has independence, I?ll never see the point of a Scottish Parliament. At the moment, it seems like a glorified Council Office, having limited powers. If an elected parliament can?t represent their people fully then it?s pointless?

Politicians speak about the break up of the United Kingdom, but would Scotland running their own affairs independently really mean this? after all, we could still be a member of the United Kingdom, as we are members of the European Union. (Just a thought). Bearing in mind, I?ve heard some resentment from people in England expressing concerns about Scottish Westminster MPs voting on issues that affect England & Wales only. (This is not good.. and contravenes what Parliaments should be about)


.

[johnboy1974]

love bick eck hes the best politician in the uk but i would not vote for independance as i think the union is and always has been good for scotland so i see no need to go it alone. As for the referendum i think the vast majority of scots will opose independance.

[Lainie]

much as i think its a good idea i dont think it would work as we dont have the population to support it.

[Grizz]

go for it guys. the way Europe is subsuming our little countries we need all the Independence we can get....

[Lainie]

ps its bonnie scotland


YouTube - Scotland World Cup Squad 82 - We Have A Dream

[Lainie]

YouTube - We'll Be Coming

[thered]

ps its bonnie scotland

depends were yer looking at lainie lol


btw thats no a racist slur i am part jock

me nans a mcloud from the clan mcloud and me grandads ferguson

as in son of fergus of galloway

im as scottish as an englishman can be and i dont like getting the beers in either lol

[Lainie]

lol @ the red no offence taken - ive been called much worse. hope you are playing them choons lol

[thered]

lol @ the red no offence taken - ive been called much worse. hope you are playing them choons lol

i have me kilt on now listening we have our own clan tartan lol

btw the second ones a bit catchy

[bobwill]

I think independance for scotland will have a bigger effect on england as without scottish MPs labour would not get into power and england and wales would have a tory goverment for the forseable future .
I wondered why is it scotland vote snp for scottish parliament but nearly always vote labour for westminster ?

[Xram]

I think independance for scotland will have a bigger effect on england as without scottish MPs labour would not get into power and england and wales would have a tory goverment for the forseable future .
I wondered why is it scotland vote snp for scottish parliament but nearly always vote labour for westminster ?
Well that's an easy one if every one in Scotland voted SNP for Westminster then there would still not be enough SNP MPs for a government they would need at best a coalition. Labour get the vote of the Scottish people as they still remember what Maggie did to Industry not only in Scotland but the uk as a whole.
Oh xant14 the snp would shut the Gareloch down as they don't want nuclear power let alone arms there is after all a new holiday destination for you lol .

[thered]

just to ignite an old thread


and lets say you have lots of oil in the north sea as been mentioned and you can keep it who is going to protect it and your country as a whole and its assets the talk is a toy army and no nuclear weapons

will you be in the EU?

Will you be able to fund nhs?

who will pay state pensions?

what happens to english living in scotland and scottish living in england what happens if they want to return home?

have you give it any thought? or is it if it comes around we will see how it goes

[Hoppy01]

If this had been a couple of years ago then a would have said no, no and no again, but something has made me change my opinion which is unusual for me.
A think it might have started shortly after the banking crisis/MPs scandal, since then a kinda lost the little faith a had in our system so maybe am thinking that we can't do any worse if independent

Then there was Iraq, Libya and anywhere else Uncle Sam felt like bombing, a mean why the f*** are we involved and why are our lads still over there dying.
Britain gets involved in too many conflicts and we bow way too much to America.
A independent Scotland wouldn't have the military muscle to get involved, sounds good to me.
While we are at it lets stop hiding behind the deterrent bull**** argument and ditch those nasty nukes and spend the billions saved on, a don't know maybe a kids hospital or something.

Our current system is a bloated mess full of red tape and bureaucracy that serves a bunch of MPs who just don't give a sh**.
We have watched our security and standard of life get less every year as has our rights and the class divide is now bigger than ever.
Only one of my mates has a permanent job, the rest are all on week to week contracts and they are highly skilled.

My main reason for wanting independence is that its time for Scotland to stand on its own two feet, we should never be happy at being subsidised, especially when you look at Scotland's CV and track record for invention.
Our people are very innovative and with a small dynamic economy not bogged down with huge military commitments, anything could happen.
Am not saying that we will do any better, but at least it would be us that f***** it up.
In the long run it may help our relationship with England, we wouldn't be able to blame each other for the nations problems.

Scotland wont go independent, most people like the blanket of the union and feel Scotland isn't ready for it yet but a wouldn't write off wee King Alec.
A was against independence a few years ago and now a think different, a wonder how many more will feel the same when its put to the vote.
A wanna make it clear though that a have no problem with English people, if the roles were reversed a would respect anyone who wants to stand on their own two feet and am sure a lot of English feel the same.

[chas7]

well said hoppy01, agree 100% nukes out,



still undecided thou

[Shady]

lets say that scotland gets independence.. its totally its own country, has its own money, border controls etc and the north sea oil...

When and if England and or the US want that oil, we WILL come and take it, because thats what we do..

Will it be right?
no.

But thats what the empire was built on..

And when we come and take it, and scots (quite rightly) get pissed off about us taking it, we will invade and turn scotland into another Northern Ireland.

Its in our nature.

[DOUGALMCD]

Let's just say your at the wind up shady. We should all wait and see if we are going to get factual evidence of how Scotland can be independent or cannot. And for those who keep on bleating about the union where's the evidence to support that we are better off with them. Scaremongering gets us nowhere facts are what it all about and lets not forget about balls.

[Shady]

was i on the wind up then?

history states that i was presenting facts matey :)

[thered]

lets say that scotland gets independence.. its totally its own country, has its own money, border controls etc and the north sea oil...

When and if England and or the US want that oil, we WILL come and take it, because thats what we do..

Will it be right?
no.

But thats what the empire was built on..

And when we come and take it, and scots (quite rightly) get pissed off about us taking it, we will invade and turn scotland into another Northern Ireland.

Its in our nature.

no we wont we are like mother teresa now lol and we dont like tyrants like saddam hussein and gaddaffi anymore

i think all our politicians forget we went all over the world pillaging and taking over to build an empire and because we gave most of it back we now seem to want to distance ourselves from warlords and regimes which was the very thing our country was built on


regarding scotland you might have a point shady boy, if part of scotland vote to breakaway and part stay will we end up scotland split like NI?


my own view is scotland would struggle even if they kept all oil and gas in their region as production is dropping and its not infinitely reliable source of income

How would they fund pensions and NHs and a growing welfare budget?

Its ok saying we invented things but to be honest whats left to invent?? seriously maybe some back to the future hoverboards might take off but i think the only thing people invent nowadays is new style tin openers and things for betterware ooh and levi roots lol

The only big things i can think of that need inventing nowadays is virtually free fuel and a few drugs to cure disease

but that in turn brings its own problems curing diseases like cancer will make people live longer and cause more debt as there will be more pensioners


UK as a whole is bloated with public sector workers and a service sector there is not much left after that and the public sector is all funded by huge bills

Industry as we used to know it is dead and will never return on large scales like it was because simply wages are too high

If Scotland are all prepared to work for ?10 a week like nobby long in China then maybe yes lots of industry may move there but i cant see it


i cant help looking at salmond and thinking are you really interested in Scotland or lining your pockets in power

[DOUGALMCD]

Scotland was never beaten by anybody we were sold down the river by fat aristocats the same ones that are running us today. As for us being able to look after ourselves wake up and smell the coffee. Huge bills public sector blah blah It's called getting your own house in order and Scotland have always been putting more in than they get out.

[Shady]

we now seem to want to distance ourselves from warlords and regimes which was the very thing our country was built on




correct, now we're all about "regime change" and the oil/natural gas is a bonus...



but thats a whole other thread lol.


but after further research, the north sea oil wouldnt come into it, because as its not a sovereign state, scotland has no maritime boundaries and as such cannot lay claim to anything within those boundaries, such as the oil fields.

Depending on how bolshy salmond wants to get if and when he does get true independence, i can see us 'protecting' the oil fields with force. not a wind up, not scaremongering, just how i see things unfolding if these circumstances transpire.

[DOUGALMCD]

Cometh the day cometh the hour if it's worth fighting for. Do you really think that the oil and gas isn't ours even when it's on our own coastline? The real issue is that the uk as a whole have their heads so far up their own backsides and that the uk isn't a democratic country. We are being ran rings round us by the aristocracy who have every bank and politician in their pocket. The rest of the UK should be wanting freedom. Democratic Freedom

[Shady]

so after some more reading, ive discovered that scotlands annual budget is about ?30 billion, of which the Uk give roughly ?11 billion.

If you get independence, that ?11 billion shortfall could come from the oil revenues, but you would have to have it ALL and that just will not happen.

[DOUGALMCD]

Don't believe everything you read and it depends on who made it up.

[thered]

Scotland was never beaten by anybody we were sold down the river by fat aristocats the same ones that are running us today. As for us being able to look after ourselves wake up and smell the coffee. Huge bills public sector blah blah It's called getting your own house in order and Scotland have always been putting more in than they get out.

do you have the figures?

[Hoppy01]

no we wont we are like mother teresa now lol and we dont like tyrants like saddam hussein and gaddaffi anymore

i think all our politicians forget we went all over the world pillaging and taking over to build an empire and because we gave most of it back we now seem to want to distance ourselves from warlords and regimes which was the very thing our country was built on


regarding scotland you might have a point shady boy, if part of scotland vote to breakaway and part stay will we end up scotland split like NI?


my own view is scotland would struggle even if they kept all oil and gas in their region as production is dropping and its not infinitely reliable source of income

How would they fund pensions and NHs and a growing welfare budget?

Its ok saying we invented things but to be honest whats left to invent?? seriously maybe some back to the future hoverboards might take off but i think the only thing people invent nowadays is new style tin openers and things for betterware ooh and levi roots lol

The only big things i can think of that need inventing nowadays is virtually free fuel and a few drugs to cure disease

but that in turn brings its own problems curing diseases like cancer will make people live longer and cause more debt as there will be more pensioners


UK as a whole is bloated with public sector workers and a service sector there is not much left after that and the public sector is all funded by huge bills

Industry as we used to know it is dead and will never return on large scales like it was because simply wages are too high

If Scotland are all prepared to work for ?10 a week like nobby long in China then maybe yes lots of industry may move there but i cant see it


i cant help looking at salmond and thinking are you really interested in Scotland or lining your pockets in power

There is no doubt Scotland would suffer in the short term and maybe the fear of that will kill the independence debate.
There are so many variables and a small economy is always high risk, if America sneezes then we get the flu.
Salmond will need to do his sums properly and he will need to have a clear and decisive plan to convince people its possible..

Industry is usually measured on the efficiency of the government, wages no doubt have a impact on industry but that depends on what industry you are targeting.
High tech development is costly through time and engineering whilst factories are costly through labour required and big wage bills.
There is a big HP factory a few miles from my house and it was meant to shutdown a few years back, a used to work there and it was horrible to see it close bit by bit.
Now its half opened again because some genius figured out that moving the factory would make very little savings, they estimated ?800,000 a year would be saved which is tiny when you look at their turnover.
Amazon recently opened a huge warehouse, they could have done it cheaper by going to a different country but geographically Scotland was its best choice.

In the 80s the Tories had us brainwashed that industries could not be saved because of cheaper foreign labour, it never crossed her mind that maybe investment and kicking the unions in line may have been enough to revive some industries.
When Taiwan's ship building came under threat did they just shut up shop, nope, the government invested billions into making one of the best shipyards in the world.
They protected their industry and still maintained their premium price, swift action and offering the customer better service was their solution.
We flogged off business that "would" have made money, how many millionaires made a killing with BT being sold, it minted money in the early days, with some restructuring that could have minted money for us the taxpayer.
When you have a national dinosaur like Renault owning Nissan and turning impressive profits then it really makes you wonder what have our politicians been playing at.

Scotland has tourism, whisky, fishing, oil, water just to name a few and if we cut the red tape out then who knows what industry may come, Scotland is healthy as a brand worldwide, its amazing what tartan tac and rumours of a giant fish in a puddle can do.
With some deregulation and quick action a small economy could sustain itself, it has worked for other countries, before the crash Iceland had one of the best economies going till the bankers got hold of it..

Am still undecided about wee king Alec but a do know he is a lot sharper than i first thought.
A found this a good watch, a hate admitting it but a find Portillo quite a different guy today and enjoy hearing his views on the telly.

Portillo on Alex Salmond - Part 1/6 - YouTube

[DOUGALMCD]

Obviously not but I'm not running the country am I ? And I dont get them from google and I'm not going to get them for you just to prove a point.

[DOUGALMCD]

personally, i think it would be a bad idea to even start this thread. even simple stuff on here gets hate and venom, and this kind of stuff would only be fuel for the haters on both sides. on this occasion i think its best for everyone to keep their views private. come on guys this is not what dk is about ;)

Wise words from a wise man.

[thered]

There is no doubt Scotland would suffer in the short term and maybe the fear of that will kill the independence debate.
There are so many variables and a small economy is always high risk, if America sneezes then we get the flu.
Salmond will need to do his sums properly and he will need to have a clear and decisive plan to convince people its possible..

Industry is usually measured on the efficiency of the government, wages no doubt have a impact on industry but that depends on what industry you are targeting.
High tech development is costly through time and engineering whilst factories are costly through labour required and big wage bills.
There is a big HP factory a few miles from my house and it was meant to shutdown a few years back, a used to work there and it was horrible to see it close bit by bit.
Now its half opened again because some genius figured out that moving the factory would make very little savings, they estimated ?800,000 a year would be saved which is tiny when you look at their turnover.
Amazon recently opened a huge warehouse, they could have done it cheaper by going to a different country but geographically Scotland was its best choice.

In the 80s the Tories had us brainwashed that industries could not be saved because of cheaper foreign labour, it never crossed her mind that maybe investment and kicking the unions in line may have been enough to revive some industries.
When Taiwan's ship building came under threat did they just shut up shop, nope, the government invested billions into making one of the best shipyards in the world.
They protected their industry and still maintained their premium price, swift action and offering the customer better service was their solution.
We flogged off business that "would" have made money, how many millionaires made a killing with BT being sold, it minted money in the early days, with some restructuring that could have minted money for us the taxpayer.
When you have a national dinosaur like Renault owning Nissan and turning impressive profits then it really makes you wonder what have our politicians been playing at.

Scotland has tourism, whisky, fishing, oil, water just to name a few and if we cut the red tape out then who knows what industry may come, Scotland is healthy as a brand worldwide, its amazing what tartan tac and rumours of a giant fish in a puddle can do.
With some deregulation and quick action a small economy could sustain itself, it has worked for other countries, before the crash Iceland had one of the best economies going till the bankers got hold of it..

Am still undecided about wee king Alec but a do know he is a lot sharper than i first thought.
A found this a good watch, a hate admitting it but a find Portillo quite a different guy today and enjoy hearing his views on the telly.

Portillo on Alex Salmond - Part 1/6 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeV8T17Fgyg&playnext=1&list=PL0F98581580041B91&feature=results_main)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjCxAK8Y9kw&playnext=1&list=PL0F98581580041B91&feature=results_main)


I agree with some points but any venture on your own in this economic climate is very risky.

Growth in UK is very slow business want government grants to build factories then **** off when they run out

I agree high tech stuff is whats needed for UK industry but on your own you would be then competing with the rest of the UK for contracts.

Is scotland more accessible than england to industry?

Even if you kept all the oil who did all the exploration BP,BG, shell all headquarted in England and pay tax to the treasury?

RBS who pays their debt back??

Ireland is struggling they have whiskey,guiness , fishing and tourism what would make scotland fare better

[nara]

I was actually a member of the SNP in the dark and distant past, but I'm older and wiser now. :rolleyes:

The Donald Trump golf course fiasco was the final nail in the coffin of my support for them.

The mind-boggling naivety they displayed shows that they can't be trusted to run a piss-up in a brewery, let alone a country. :thumpdown:

[Hoppy01]

I agree with some points but any venture on your own in this economic climate is very risky.

Growth in UK is very slow business want government grants to build factories then **** off when they run out

I agree high tech stuff is whats needed for UK industry but on your own you would be then competing with the rest of the UK for contracts.

Is scotland more accessible than england to industry?

Even if you kept all the oil who did all the exploration BP,BG, shell all headquarted in England and pay tax to the treasury?

RBS who pays their debt back??

Ireland is struggling they have whiskey,guiness , fishing and tourism what would make scotland fare better


Am not under the illusion that we would be keeping all the oil, a think we both know that wont happen but it will contribute to both economies and it would be foolish to base the entire economy on it.
RBS have nearly completed their repayment back to the taxpayer and a expect the government will offload it as soon as it can.
RBS set to pay back last of ?163bn loan from taxpayer - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9244389/RBS-set-to-pay-back-last-of-163bn-loan-from-taxpayer.html).

A agree that the economic climate is risky just now but if we were to try and work out a convenient time then it would never be right.
Our current economy is flat due to the governments plan failing to stimulate growth, we needed a VAT rise like a bag on our hip and we are still tied up with a complicated tax system that's inefficient and expensive.
Its hardly a incentive to attract business investment, something the Germans learned 10 years ago when they reformed their system, now they are holding the Euro together and have one of the most stable economies in the world.
So our next move is to throw billions at the banks to stimulate growth, nothing happened and the banks kept the money and everyone seems fine with that...
Here is a question for you that a would like your view on, do you not think that British politics needs gutted from top to bottom?

A would say Scotland is as accessible as England and we have the infrastructure to compete with not only England but Europe and the world.
Its not a case of we get independence, rebuild Haydens Wall and never speak to each other again, there will still be many joint business ventures and a relationship will still be maintained.
Its like a said before, the main motivation is to stand on our own feet and pay our way without subsidies, a thought England would be happy about that and a find it strange that there is such bitterness on both sides about independence.

If you look at the Irish economy maybe 5 years before the crash you will see that it was one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, like many they made the mistake of sticking much of that growth in the banks and went belly up, a suppose that's the downside of a small economy..
If Ireland was doing ok before the crash then there is no reason we can't do the same.

[thered]

I was actually a member of the SNP in the dark and distant past, but I'm older and wiser now. :rolleyes:

The Donald Trump golf course fiasco was the final nail in the coffin of my support for them.

The mind-boggling naivety they displayed shows that they can't be trusted to run a piss-up in a brewery, let alone a country. :thumpdown:

Dont know about you nara but i feel like hes leading people up the garden path i feel his motives are going to end up more to benefit himself long term than the people i may be wrong but its just a gut feeling i have

[Lainie]

ive never voted snp in my life and its highly unlikely i ever will. salmond has done away with prescription charges and council tax has been frozen for a couple of years but not sure how long that will continue. not sure on his ideas for the benefits system or building new council houses but id be interested to hear them.

[Snowy79]

I think the people of Scotland are being treated like mugs by Labour and the Conservatives. We contribute more in taxes than we get back. We're even told where to spend some of this money from a Government that I think only has one elected MP in Scotland.

We're forced to participate in wars that have nothing to do with us and even give away billions in overseas aid to countries that are better off than us.

For our population even forgetting about the oil we could stand alone. We have enough of a workforce paying taxes and businesses bringing in billions every year to more than cover our costs.

Think about it. If we're such a financial burden on the UK and we don't vote Conservative, why do they want to keep us except for our contributions. Would you, when the Countries in financial shi@e keep something thats costing you and doesn't want you or do you cut them adrift and pump your money into your supporters.

As for the SNP being in power. Where does it say that given independance they will be elected into power ? Surely it will be up to the people to decide. Maybe they'll vote for Scottish Labour or Scottish Greens etc. Don't be fooled by the press and Politicians.

Norway is in the same boat as us and they've a great standard of living, and as for us not being allowed into the EU and having to re-apply in our own right, I'm under the impression most people want the UK out of it anyway. Including some senior Conservative and Labour MP's that are bleating that Scotland may not be allowed in.