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View Full Version : DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 2.0TDI140HP AND 2.0TDI 170HP



grinovsky
22nd June, 2011, 09:46 PM
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grinovsky
22nd June, 2011, 10:04 PM
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lolooo1981
22nd June, 2011, 11:06 PM
CR or PD engine ?

grinovsky
22nd June, 2011, 11:10 PM
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lolooo1981
22nd June, 2011, 11:27 PM
Good remap in tdi 140 and you see tdi 170 in the mirror.

Best regards

grinovsky
22nd June, 2011, 11:42 PM
i had done a few of them

alexs307
23rd June, 2011, 08:45 AM
by using 2 different ecu the first one use a bosch EDC16 and the seconde use a siemens ecu


First one is Bosch EDC16, second one is Bosch EDC17, not Siemens.
170HP Pumpe Duse version has Siemens ECU, the CR version has Bosch. Your Q5 file is from Bosch ecu.

grinovsky
23rd June, 2011, 12:12 PM
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alexs307
23rd June, 2011, 12:19 PM
In my opinion PD's will remain the most "tuneable" engines, if I may say so. Can't figure out why VAG got rid of them and switched to CR...maybe exhaust emissions too high to cope with new Euro5 regulations?

lolooo1981
23rd June, 2011, 12:29 PM
And for siemens TDI there is a few different type of ecu inside.Gain in siemens 170 is good and for CR ?

grinovsky
23rd June, 2011, 01:42 PM
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grinovsky
23rd June, 2011, 01:53 PM
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Eight
23rd June, 2011, 05:02 PM
There is difference in boost
Q5 2,5bar max boost
A3 2,3

del635
23rd June, 2011, 05:35 PM
In my opinion PD's will remain the most "tuneable" engines, if I may say so. Can't figure out why VAG got rid of them and switched to CR...maybe exhaust emissions too high to cope with new Euro5 regulations?
Common rail injection pressures have now surpassed pd ones, look at max pressure in gen1, 2, 3, etc common rail then pd. Pds load the cam an awful lot as well. Higher pressure means better atomization better efficiency etc, thats what I think anyway.
grinovsky compare the torque/fuel at the rpm where it makes peak hp not torque, peak torque figures mean nothing re speed/acceleration, most standard diesel family saloons make a higher peak torque figure than an f1 car!

grinovsky
23rd June, 2011, 08:25 PM
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grinovsky
23rd June, 2011, 08:54 PM
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MarkPRP
23rd June, 2011, 09:48 PM
So, are the engines the same? Injectors, turbo etc?

Customers always ask questions about it.

This is really what I like to read!

alexs307
23rd June, 2011, 10:08 PM
In A3 2.0TDI, PD engine, inside the maps, the duration is in crankshaft degrees (factor 0.023437), not miliseconds...all PD duration maps are in crankshaft degrees, not miliseconds...

In Audi Q5 CR maps, injector opening time is in miliseconds, indeed.

Wonder how you people tune this engines if you don't know the actual output of the calibration maps... no offense, but this is basics of chiptuning...

grinovsky
23rd June, 2011, 11:02 PM
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alexs307
24th June, 2011, 07:21 AM
My intention was to correct you, not to attack you. But it is getting more and more difficult for me to figure out how you tune this engines without knowing the output of these maps.

Anyway, you are totally wrong about duration maps on Pumpe-Duse TDI engines, believe me, output of these maps is crankshaft degrees. Ask for a second opinion if you don't trust me. Indeed the SOI maps have same factor (in PD EDC16) and output is crankshaft degrees, but this is not related to our problem here, we are discussing about PD duration maps.

Try to study a PD damos and you will see.

Also waiting for another opinion about PD duration maps to confirm Grinovsky that I am right.

alexs307
24th June, 2011, 08:08 AM
why at low speed engine the values are negative

Not entirely true...at low engine speed+low injected quantity the SOI values are negative...

Retarded injection gives you reduced combustion efficiency but helps you minimize idle speed noise and helps you spool up turbocharger faster.

At lower engine speeds and lower IQ on a turbodiesel, you don't have enough air as turbocharger hasn't build up boost yet. If injection takes place too early (meaning injection advance is increased) for the compressed air to be enough to ignite the sprayed diesel, then the diesel will not totally burn and will come out of the exhaust as soot.

One last reason is NOx emissions, that have to be kept between certain limits. Retarded injection will produce lower NOx, advanced injection will produce higher NOx due to higher EGT.

filecloud
24th June, 2011, 08:34 AM
in duration maps the unit? is always in milisecondes that's why it's named duration(may be the houre of alex show time in degree :stupid:but in maps duration the unite is milisecondes diesel or petrole engine)
but i will show you mr:alex :afraid:when we apply this factor and the unite is degree:advance of injection map(E2BFA A3 dump)
in this map you can see when the injection will be as crankshaft degrees
if you have few knowledge in chiptuning answer why at low speed engine the values are negative

Haha
G will never learn and accept his own errors. He starts his own topic and noone is interested.
He compares engines of two totally differrent generations, makes false statements, answers his own questions and even logs in with his second account to agree himself. Just like Norman Bates
Kindergarten live

Facts:
2,0 PD engine BKD:
InjVlv_phiInjMI1_MAPx unit is [deg CrS] = Winkel Kurbelwelle (degree crankshaft). Factor is 0,023437
The proper name for this map is not "duration map" but "Kennfeld zur Bestimmung der F?rderdauer f?r Haupteinspritzung". Translate it yourself from german if you wish to learn something.
Sorry G. You will not change that. This info is from Bosch and they invented this system. Not You!

greetings,
filecloud

alexs307
24th June, 2011, 09:23 AM
Quod erat demonstrandum...

Thanks, Filecloud...at least one member of this forum is not sleeping...

Will be waiting for the others' opinion, as well...

kesiric
24th June, 2011, 09:28 AM
I wish I was a bit smarter, I love secrets you are reveiling in cars :laugh:

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 10:49 AM
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alexs307
24th June, 2011, 11:18 AM
I think Bosch company is nothing compared to your knowledge...

We'll explain it to you as in kindergarden:

So called Pumpe-Duse Duration maps are reffering to a period for the injector to stay open at a certain RPM, injecting X mg ammount of fuel this way/stroke, but this period is measured in crankshaft degrees, not in miliseconds...a period means a positive number, it cannot be negative, so the value measured in crankshaft degrees is positive...you cannot see negative values in this map as long as the output of the map is a positive value.

If I were you I would recognize the mistake you made and I wouldn't keep up sustaining the same wrong idea...if not, then send this guys an email telling them what Grinovsky the genius has discovered:

Bosch Worldwide - About us (http://www.bosch.com/en/com/home/homepage.html)

filecloud
24th June, 2011, 11:29 AM
i have translate it filcloude::celtictop:
Map for determining the eligibility period for the main injection
periode means milisecondes
ok guys,i will do it very simply:hmmmm2::
if the duration map is with degrees find me one map in any TDI engine where the value is negative at low speed engine:rolleyes:
if you find it,i am wrong and you are right:eek:
if you don't find it ,it's becose the time can't have negative values:mad:

Stick to the topic Mr. G! We are not here to educate you for the other things you do not know and most likely never understand.

Duration does not mean time! You get time out of duration if you divide through engine rpm.
The map is in degree crankshaft. Period!
You can stomp on the floor and cry like a baby if you want to. Or you can log in with your second account and thank yourself and agree to yourself. This does not help either.
It will stay in degree crankshaft on every pd edc16 engine.
Mr. Bosch tells us so. :laugh:
greetings,
filecloud

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 12:03 PM
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filecloud
24th June, 2011, 12:30 PM
i challenge you filecloud for a printscreen with duration map with damos integration
aux gros mots les gros remedes.......(translate this)

You miss the point Mr. G.
After you have degraded yourself so many times you are not in the position that allows you to challenge anyone. A challenge needs equal opponents. And you made yourself only a victim!
But here is the proof for the rest of the forum :laugh:

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 01:02 PM
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filecloud
24th June, 2011, 01:16 PM
oh,filcloude,..........:roflmao: why???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
did you see the value of axe Z with you damos integration:roflmao:
i see that the max of this map is more than 45ms
and the axe X and AXE Y are inverted,it's common in damos too
and next time use the dump that is uploaded in post 1 (A3):roflmao:

You wanted a duration map of any pd car. I decided to take a BLS engine. And this is what you got. :laugh:
As mentioned before. Your degraded rank does not allow you to choose. You must live with what we decide that you get!

So now post your real damos integration of a BKD engine and proof with printscreens that Mr. Bosch is wrong :roflmao:

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 01:37 PM
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coolbits
24th June, 2011, 01:38 PM
PD TDI duration map is always in degrees, as far as i know...
It shows how many degrees the injector stays open... you can calculate the time from this and engine rpm...

alexs307
24th June, 2011, 01:40 PM
Grinovsky, that's it. You're sick.

Not only you don't know basics of this stuff, you are always trying to prove that you are ok and we are wrong no matter if the truth is obvious.

Now you are claiming that Bosch is wrong.

A moderator should take attitude. There are other interested users reading these topics and maybe they will be fooled by G's wrong knowledge.

G, you are a danger for the cars you tune as long as you don't know what a simple PD duration map consist of. I feel pity for those that have cars tuned by you.

Once again, if a moderator that cares about this forum and about the knowledge shared here should take attitude.

alexs307
24th June, 2011, 01:45 PM
The duration maps tells the ECU how long to energize the injector in order to inject X ammount of fuel/stroke at a certain RPM, in crankshaft degrees. The ECU knows how many crankshaft degrees to keep the injector open by analyzing the signal from the crankshaft positioning sensor, for example. If the duration map has a 28 degrees value at a certain RPM for a certain IQ, this means the ECU will keep the injector during the period the crankshaft is turning with 28degrees.

The injection begins for that X ammount of fuel at that Y RPM relying on value from the SOI maps corresponding to that X ammount of fuel and Y rpm, in relation with TDC.

filecloud
24th June, 2011, 01:49 PM
PD TDI duration map is always in degrees, as far as i know...
It shows how many degrees the injector stays open... you can calculate the time from this and engine rpm...
Exactly. Simple like this. No rocket science needed.

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 01:59 PM
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alexs307
24th June, 2011, 02:03 PM
Try to figure out yourself and don't ask us, you are the one that doesn't know here, not us! Maybe you'll learn something new today.

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 02:10 PM
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alexs307
24th June, 2011, 02:21 PM
The only wrong thing here is you, my friend.

End of story.

Go cry now.

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 02:27 PM
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filecloud
24th June, 2011, 02:28 PM
so,there is not a map for open time injector in TDI ecu!!!!!!!
and the ecu analyse
if i see the advance map injection i will se that in idle the value is negative -2? in oure exemple(start of injection)
and open time injectore at idle is 4 (degrees if you want)
so,how the ecu will analyse this???;)
my answer is:at -2? the ecu open injector for 4ms
and yours?

Use your own brain (if there is one) and do not bother us with your false statements please! The ecu knows how to handle stacks and obviously can calculate with integer as well as with signed values.
It is not our fault that you were ill when they had negative numbers in school. And we will not teach you here.
:eviltongue:
greetings,
filecloud

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 02:32 PM
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grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 02:35 PM
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alexs307
24th June, 2011, 02:36 PM
Better send an email to Bosch and ask them, G. Maybe this way they will figure out the mistakes they made when they designed PD engines. Sweet and wet dreams!

filecloud
24th June, 2011, 02:38 PM
an other wrong answer:aetsch:
no things surprises me

So you still pretend you have a brain? OK!
We want a proof!
:laugh:

coolbits
24th June, 2011, 02:42 PM
Just calculate a bit. Ful circle is 360 degrees, at 1rpm it takes a minute to do ful circle.
How much time it takes to do 20 degrees?
Now you do /4000 to get the time for 20degrees at 4000rpm.
Simple.

grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 02:50 PM
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grinovsky
24th June, 2011, 02:55 PM
alex and filecloude have to continius this thread becose of the incompetence of grinovsky
are you happy now?

lolooo1981
24th June, 2011, 05:05 PM
alex and filecloude have to continius this thread becose of the incompetence of grinovsky
are you happy now?

Maybe they have just a time to lose.
(Mais n'oublions pas que le temps c de l'argent):D

Best regards

alexs307
24th June, 2011, 07:04 PM
alex and filecloude have to continius this thread becose of the incompetence of grinovsky
are you happy now?


None of us is happy. I would have been happy if you documented when I first told you that you are wrong, not telling me that because of the late hour "my duration" is in crankshaft degrees. It wouldn't have been a problem.
Now you erased all because after 4 pages you realise you are wrong indeed. It doesn't help neither of us anymore.

End.

bazare
24th June, 2011, 10:08 PM
Oh my god ... I've been on vacation only a few days and I have lost the track of this topic!!! I should be ashamed! My friend G strikes again as it seems, and proves again how good he is in tuning cars. He doesn't know how PD duration maps work :roflmao:

grinovsky
25th June, 2011, 02:01 AM
Oh my god ... I've been on vacation only a few days and I have lost the track of this topic!!! I should be ashamed! My friend G strikes again as it seems, and proves again how good he is in tuning cars. He doesn't know how PD duration maps work :roflmao:
an other clown that come from vacation
this one mesure the time by kiliometres

bazare
25th June, 2011, 06:49 AM
hmm let me think ... you've deleted all your posts just because you are right, and we all are wrong :stupid: R-tard!!! ALL PD duration maps have output in crankshaft degrees. Never in mili-seconds. End of discussion!
Just like the others said, you are not in the position to say anything. And please don't cry ... it's normal for a technician to know S**T about cars :roflmao:

gmb45
25th June, 2011, 07:18 AM
this thread is next to worthless now, i suggest you start another thread and keep it on topic this time please. i dont know whos right or wrong, but its turned into a slagging each other off thread.