Saxo over fueling

[Liteace]

Got here a 2000 shitroen Saxo 1.400 8 Valve KFX engine with IAW 1AP.81 marelli ECU. Injector ms at idle is 7.13ms, ive checked all and everything seems OK, its got a new o2 sensor fitted, the o2 heater +12 feed from the main relay is OK, Evap valve OK, its pumping so much fuel in, even if you pull the vac pipe out the servo it still runs. Could it be poss. ECU problem, got loads of Saxo & 106's over here, had problems before with immo in ECU but never had a problem with over fueling

[Meat-Head]

POST CLOCKING:-

Is there any fault codes in it.

Just a thought - Punto - early - feature where the cambelt slips and then the inlet fannymould is 'pressureised'.

Can you connect map sensor to a vac pump or another car - find a fridge rip out compresser etc etc - repeat experiment.

*THINK* if you start it then unplug immo box (behind gloveboc rhd) or possablitly next to steering colon - intherory is immo off.

MEAT

[Liteace]

nope, no fault codes, MAP reading 375mb at idle ?

[Meat-Head]

MAF reading 375mb at idle ?


Sorry - means ~~~~ all at this time of night.

Can you jamb a hair drier up the arse of airflow meter

Also check voltage out of airflow meter.

Is it possable cat has collapsed slightly causing an 'non breathe' situation.

would have though yacking vac pipe out servo make idle at 5000?

[flyins]

Just a suggestion but is the fuel not regulated via temp sensor aswell?

[Liteace]

Just a suggestion but is the fuel not regulated via temp sensor aswell?

Yep sure is and both of them check out OK, unplugging them one at a time or both together makes no diff at all

[smokey08]

No air flow meter on these meaty. Is the TPS ok? No exhaust blows infront of the lambda sensor? Check the injection period with the map sensor unplugged. I have done a fair few map sensors on these.

[Meat-Head]

can you get a live data reading of the temp.

or can you jamb a resiotro across them?

is it CHUG-CHUG-CHUG - like you have pulled the choke out and put your man bag on it?

[Liteace]

No air flow meter on these meaty. Is the TPS ok? No exhaust blows infront of the lambda sensor? Check the injection period with the map sensor unplugged. I have done a fair few map sensors on these.

TPS is fine, scoped it and all good, exhaust is fine, its just been for its MOT and failed on emissions, I dont think its a blocked cat as it drives fine and will get upto redline no problems, if MAP is unplugged it will stall ??

[Meat-Head]

No air flow meter on these meaty.

See post 3

Don't throw those bloody spears at me - michael Caine - YouTube

[Liteace]

can you get a live data reading of the temp.

or can you jamb a resiotro across them?

is it CHUG-CHUG-CHUG - like you have pulled the choke out and put your man bag on it?


See post 3



Live reading for temp is 93c, sorry edited post 3 as I put MAF and not MAP (div)

[smokey08]

Have you got the emissions printout? Post the readings (CO, CO2, O2, HC) if there on there.

[Meat-Head]

if you unplug map expect it to be 'on full choke'

Going to bed now - see RabC Nesbit's around.

[Liteace]

Have you got the emissions printout? Post the readings (CO, CO2, O2, HC) if there on there.

Nope, didnt grab them BUT CO was about 8.00, HC was at about 400 cant remember what the other was, will check tomorrow

[the_riddler]

vacuum leak??

scope maf, and try to compare with known good signal..

i have in rare occasion seen maf give what appeared good signal, until it was compared to good signal, and was only missing 0.5v from signal, but caused massive running problems
without no codes held.


Just a thought..

was 02 sensor changed to fix this fault of was it changed for other reason??

look for mechanical faults that will make engine exhaust gases lean..
hense 02 keeps richening mixture until its satisfied..

i know you already know this, but somtimes the routine gets overlooked. :beer:

[jnoroeste]

Hi M8, check fuel pressure at rail, fuel pressure regulator seems wrong.

Good luck.

[Liteace]

vacuum leak??

scope maf, and try to compare with known good signal..

i have in rare occasion seen maf give what appeared good signal, until it was compared to good signal, and was only missing 0.5v from signal, but caused massive running problems
without no codes held.


Just a thought..

was 02 sensor changed to fix this fault of was it changed for other reason??

look for mechanical faults that will make engine exhaust gases lean..
hense 02 keeps richening mixture until its satisfied..

i know you already know this, but somtimes the routine gets overlooked. :beer:


Hi M8, check fuel pressure at rail, fuel pressure regulator seems wrong.

Good luck.

o2 sensor brand new, old one in boot, dont know why it was changed, it come to me as it was, un plugging the o2 sesor wire dont do anything its still pumping in fuel, no air leaks but it you make one by unplugging the servo hose its runs fine at about 1500rpm and the CO drops to about 3.00

Fuel pressure is ok, meant to be 3 bar its about 2.6

[easytech]

It's the ECU. I had this also once.
The lambda integrator stays on max why? I don't know.
Put one from the scrapyard and all was OK.

[Liteace]

It's the ECU. I had this also once.
The lambda integrator stays on max why? I don't know.
Put one from the scrapyard and all was OK.



Thanks for this info, I thought I'd cracked it on Thurs, cam timing was 2 teeth advanced, tappets were a little tight, sorted it put it all back together and its the same. She now tells me its been to the shitreons and they said it was the ECU, why did she not tell me that in the 1st place, would have saved me loads of time. If I download ECU from scrapyard Im going to have to get matching key and immo as well am I not ???

[Meat-Head]

If I download ECU from scrapyard Im going to have to get matching key and immo as well am I not ???


In your case been a magnet reelli - would - have to ask the Man from Delmone - see what he says.

The scrap yard key - get the loop around the barrell - and the key then stuff the pair behind the dash.

If was a boasch you could ahve swapped the 24C02 or whatever

Meat

[Liteace]

Has this not got immo 1 system, can I just get ECU or do I need key, immo & ECU ??


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[Meat-Head]

think of it like this:

Your going to town to buy a new Fondoo set - do you buy a bit from here there and the other - or buy a matching fondoo set from ebay?

[Liteace]

think of it like this:

Your going to town to buy a new Fondoo set - do you buy a bit from here there and the other - or buy a matching fondoo set from ebay?

Thanks, last time I looked there was nothing wrong with my old Fondoo set

[Meat-Head]

in that case Sorry no idea of the answer to post 21 then

[Liteace]

It's the ECU. I had this also once.
The lambda integrator stays on max why? I don't know.
Put one from the scrapyard and all was OK.



Replacement ECU fitted from other Saxo, still the same
Any other ideas ??

[Larue]

I would check pressure in exhaust . Just in case that CAT is partially melted.

[richy_rich]

If you hook up a diagnostic doodad what are the long term and short term fuel trim readings? This might help determine if the ECU knows something is up and is trying to over/under compensate or it thinks everything is fine (less likely).

Also perhaps worth looking at the injectors? Hmm, just a thought but if it runs OK with the vacuum pipe unplugged (introduced air leak) could the inlet side just be blocked somewhere (air filter, egr valve)

[Meat-Head]

whhoops - tell punter you needed to try it to elminate it.

can you swap ecu's back over - test other car.

1) Loom between ecu and engine - get some bolt croppers - chop out
the entire length -open and inspect

2) Can you run a new piece of wire from map to ecu

OFF TOPIC:-

We had a VW T4 throttle fault - had new pedal (new new) - still the same

New wire from ECU whacked a hole in the windscreen - ran a piece of house hold burglar alarm wire 3 times around the seteering wheel 4 times around the hand brake, through the drivers door handle then through the drive shaft to the
throttle pedal - cured it my thick mates.

ON TOPIC:

find a head light bulb - say 55 watts - wires in series to neg of map sensor
see if it biases it enough to make it tell ecu 'rich'

or a 50 ohm resistor on neg of map

AT YOUR RISK

HTH

Meat

[EssexTech]

Can you check the resistance of the injectors. Also check the resistance of the EFI coolant sensor at the ECU when hot with the ECU connector disconnected

[Liteace]

Ive stripped the loom down and nothing burnt or shorting, Ive changed the TPS with another from one that was running OK and still the same.

Strange thing is, if you wind-up the throttle butterfly stop screw so its just off idle, about 85-100 rpm over (I know its factory set and not meant to be touched) the o2 starts working fine and can be seen doing its job in the scope signal BUT as soon as you back it off again so its got a smooth idle Im getting a (rich) flat line on the scope ????

Stupid question now, this has marelli system on it, it has a bosch 0 261 230 057 MAP sensor, is that the correct MAP sensor ?? and what voltage shoud I be seeing at idle ??

I dont think Ive ever seen a marelli MAP sensor and the only reason Im asking is it driving me mad and I dont know what else to check

[Meat-Head]

try lookinh here - link from sminofrules in another thread - but have a good look round the site

Citroen Fiat Peugeot Renault MAP Sensor (http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/tabid/144/CategoryID/313/ProductID/1695/language/en-US/Default.aspx)

for testing purposes, get an firemans axe and chop the crankcase breather off.

sorry - did you say cam timing's ok?

whatabout pipe from map to fannimold blocked?

as your a VIP now - try sticking your bighead in air intake to makesure no airleaks - french airleak might make it rich not lean.

[Liteace]

No crank breather, its vented through the rocker cover pipe to air filter, air filter been removed, ive also checked to see if any HC in oil and nothing, CO didnt change when crank breather hose to air filter disconnected, cam timing is spot on, no fannymold to MAP pipe, the MAP is a push fit into the fannymold

[smokey08]

Strange thing is, if you wind-up the throttle butterfly stop screw so its just off idle, about 85-100 rpm over (I know its factory set and not meant to be touched) the o2 starts working fine and can be seen doing its job in the scope signal BUT as soon as you back it off again so its got a smooth idle Im getting a (rich) flat line on the scope ????



Is there any adaption (basic settings) that can be carried out on the ICV with lexia?

[Liteace]

Is there any adaption (basic settings) that can be carried out on the ICV with lexia?

Dont know don't have lexia, it has been to main stealers and they did say it needed a new ecu !!

[Larue]

Stupid question now, this has marelli system on it, it has a bosch 0 261 230 057 MAP sensor, is that the correct MAP sensor ?? and what voltage shoud I be seeing at idle ??

I dont think Ive ever seen a marelli MAP sensor and the only reason Im asking is it driving me mad and I dont know what else to check

It is right MAP sensor for car.
Have you tried fit another one?

[Liteace]

Not tried another that's next on the list, from the Bosch part number it looks correct


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[Liteace]

Went to Bosch today and asked them if the part was correct for this model and it is, didn't buy a new one just incase there's nothing wrong with this one, will try one from another Saxo 1st


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[Larue]

Went to Bosch today and asked them if the part was correct for this model and it is, didn't buy a new one just incase there's nothing wrong with this one, will try one from another Saxo 1st


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Hmmm...you already got an answer from Bosch dealer before you went to it.
I'm working at Bosch dealership:wavey:

[Liteace]

New MAP sensor fitted and still the same, its had new:

MAP
ECU
TPS
o2

what else ???????????

[Meat-Head]

Sorry, not in mood.

Have you tried a pair of Mole or Ferrret Grips on the fuel supply?

Is there a good vacum on the fuel reg?

Did see in a ~~~~o mag - think was a Gulf - diagrame split on th fuel reg - was sucking in neat gasoline.

What about - disable one errerctor at a time - see if one cyclinder is worse than the others.

Did you say you tried Lambarda sensors?

Is it pheasable exhaust, slightly blocked, causing pollution - (Frogench) -

so first fault is ECU - what is the 2nd then!

[Liteace]

Had another quick look today at this foooooooking shitreon, I plugged in the original ECU and scoped the lambda at operating temperature Im getting a flatline of 0.8v at whatever RPM, with the second (used) Im only getting flat at idle anything just above idle the scope wave is waving as it should do ?

[Meat-Head]

with the second (used) Im only getting flat at idle anything just above idle the scope wave is waving as it should do ?


Sorry, got swimming certificate and i'm licensed to drive a typewriter at 35 RPM or something, but not licensed to use osilly scope.

Can only suggest, you repeat that experiment, but

1) That wire you picked up on, cut it at the lambarda sensor end - repeat experiment

2) That's a goldern opertunity for a butt connector - join the wire
but cut at the ecu end, repeat experiment

3) SWAP ecu back, repeat experiment 1, then experiment 2

At the end of it, you will be either non the wiser, but will have a fantastic daisy chain of butt connectors.

Meat

[Liteace]

Sorted:

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/members/44003-liteace/albums/scope/5729-img-1300.jpg


http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/members/44003-liteace/albums/scope/5730-img-1296.jpg

[Larue]

Sorted:

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/members/44003-liteace/albums/scope/5729-img-1300.jpg


http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/members/44003-liteace/albums/scope/5730-img-1296.jpg
What was causing a problem? Just interesting to know after all this guessing.

[Liteace]

no idea, ive been using the car for about a month, I just checked it again the other day and its good, well good enough to get through a test, just another strange frogench pile of shit

[Liteace]

I think the problem was frogench car, built in Spicain with Iti-alian electronics, what could be worse

[jonniebravo]

Or it could be moist....
were you checking signals from sensors directly on ecu connector?

[Liteace]

Or it could be moist....
were you checking signals from sensors directly on ecu connector?

OH Shite, that where I was going wrong, I was testing the sensor signals from the rear left hand facing rear facing numberplate light maybe thats the problem, as for moist, the only thig thats moist is the missis custard gusset :laugh:

[Meat-Head]

chances are old ecu was overfueling, now got good ecu, and you have trahed it, it's burned off excess hydrocarbons

[jonniebravo]

Well thread was started few months ago, you changed almost everything, only wires are same ones from the beginning...i don't know...maybe those hydrocarbs...