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View Full Version : 1st and 2nd gear torque limiters - 2.0 TDI edc16u34



teoturo
2nd December, 2011, 10:29 PM
Good evening,
could somebody please take a look on this edc16U34 file and suggest me how to disable or at least increase torque limiters for first and second gear? These 2.0 tdi DPF 8v engines (built on the basis of 1.9 8v engine and not 2.0 16v) have torque limiters on first gears and it is so bad to drive also when chiptuned.

otzi
3rd December, 2011, 11:19 AM
Hi
Ithink it's
Best Regards

filecloud
3rd December, 2011, 11:43 AM
Good evening,
could somebody please take a look on this edc16U34 file and suggest me how to disable or at least increase torque limiters for first and second gear? These 2.0 tdi DPF 8v engines (built on the basis of 1.9 8v engine and not 2.0 16v) have torque limiters on first gears and it is so bad to drive also when chiptuned.

otzi's info is correct
So the limiters are not active on your car. And also not on any other vag 2.0 edc16 i have seen
:-)
check your tuning for errors!

macxlulu
3rd December, 2011, 12:15 PM
if I remember correctly was carried out by service aso share (probably in 2006-2007) year on audi a6 2.0 in order to reduce the torque of a 1 gear (update soft in ecu), because the two-wheel and clutch mass be corrupted, the same I had a few of these cars at work

Generally an interesting topic, because I was always curious about this limter

teoturo
3rd December, 2011, 02:32 PM
otzi's info is correct
So the limiters are not active on your car. And also not on any other vag 2.0 edc16 i have seen
:-)
check your tuning for errors!

Sorry but tuning has no errors, or it would be definitely not possible that 3rd gear makes 225/40R18 wheels spin on straight at 2000rpm and 1st/2nd gear don't make the same.
I'm sure something is limited in 1st and 2nd gear as car pushes definitely more in 3rd than in 2nd gear and this means tuning is good, but something changes with the gear selected.

I know these maps I touched are just 4 and they should be 7, but could these curves I modified be the problem?

filecloud
3rd December, 2011, 03:35 PM
Sorry but tuning has no errors, or it would be definitely not possible that 3rd gear makes 225/40R18 wheels spin on straight at 2000rpm and 1st/2nd gear don't make the same.
I'm sure something is limited in 1st and 2nd gear as car pushes definitely more in 3rd than in 2nd gear and this means tuning is good, but something changes with the gear selected.

I know these maps I touched are just 4 and they should be 7, but could these curves I modified be the problem?
:-)
What do you think are those 2 maps you have changed?
Please explain.
:-)

teoturo
3rd December, 2011, 03:54 PM
:-)
What do you think are those 2 maps you have changed?
Please explain.
:-)

Of course I can explain, but first could you please explain how can it be that 3rd gear pushes more and makes wheels spin than 1st and 2nd gears which push nothing and don't make any wheel-spin? :joyman:

In particular, as in your opinion I should "check my tuning for errors", why original file has the same behaviour and 1st and 2nd gear push less than 3rd gear? :call:

filecloud
3rd December, 2011, 03:57 PM
Of course I can explain, but first could you please explain how can it be that 3rd gear pushes more and makes wheels spin than 1st and 2nd gears which push nothing and don't make any wheel-spin? :joyman:

In particular, as in your opinion I should "check my tuning for errors", why original file has the same behaviour and 1st and 2nd gear push less than 3rd gear? :call:

If you know what this curve is then please explain. Then i tell what the curve really is and i will also answer you other question.
We are waiting.

teoturo
3rd December, 2011, 04:10 PM
If you know what this curve is then please explain. Then i tell what the curve really is and i will also answer you other question.
We are waiting.

If you wanna know what curve is, just open your winols and you'll get your answer.

As regards MY question, which is the question for which I opened this 3d, could you please give your opinion as your first statement was wrong? You said there are no limiters and problem is in my file; perfect, but how do you justify behaviour is the same with original file and car pushes more in 3rd gear then in 1st and 2nd? We are waiting, so you can show us your first wrong statement was just a joke.
Remember topic reason was to understand not to make stupid tests as you are doing :joyman:

filecloud
3rd December, 2011, 04:37 PM
If you wanna know what curve is, just open your winols and you'll get your answer.

As regards MY question, which is the question for which I opened this 3d, could you please give your opinion as your first statement was wrong? You said there are no limiters and problem is in my file; perfect, but how do you justify behaviour is the same with original file and car pushes more in 3rd gear then in 1st and 2nd? We are waiting, so you can show us your first wrong statement was just a joke.
Remember topic reason was to understand not to make stupid tests as you are doing :joyman:
Ok
Let's forget about that. Are you shure you are not related to Mr. g ?
My posting was not wrong. The limiters for gears are not active in none of these 2.0 VAG tdi edc16 cars. Show me one stock file to proove that i am wrong! On all it is on 3000Nm == inactive
You obviously do not want to tell what these curves are because you do not know what it is. That is fine. But then be so honest and say that you do knot know. Please respect that I hate people that are not honest. Especially in this forum. It is full of liars.
Here is label for the curves to proove that i know pretty well what it is:
PFlt_trqInrRgnLowMax1_CUR
PFlt_trqInrRgnLowMax2_CUR
PFlt_trqInrRgnLowMax3_CUR
PFlt_trqInrRgnLowMax4_CUR
This should help you. Use it wisely

And about your question about spinning wheels in first and second gear. This has nothing to do with torque limitation. Please read how torque is defined and measured.
"Torque" and the possibility of an engine to "spin up" quickly (delta rev/time) are two different stories. In first and second gear the max possible delta rev/time is simply not high enough to make the wheels spin. Typical symptom on all diesel cars and delty rev/time is especially bad on the 2valve engines because the turbo spins up relatively slow. This is a problem of engine design and diesel cumbustion speed.
The symptom can be improoved with a good tuning but not totally cured.

Put the car on a real water breaked dyno and rev it up in all gears against a heavy looad. You will see it makes the same torque in all gears.
Compare This BMM engine to a 4 valve engine like BKD and you see the same effect. Only the BKD is slightly better.
greetings,
filecloud

otzi
3rd December, 2011, 05:40 PM
My posting was not wrong. The limiters for gears are not active in none of these 2.0 VAG tdi edc16 cars. Show me one stock file to proove that i am wrong! On all it is on 3000Nm == inactive

Hi
Filecloud you are not wrog it is right 3000NM inactive
I think active=450 NM

This has nothing to do with torque limitation in this file for 1-2 gear
Teoturo send us tuned file
BR

teoturo
4th December, 2011, 09:47 AM
Ok
And about your question about spinning wheels in first and second gear. This has nothing to do with torque limitation. Please read how torque is defined and measured.
"Torque" and the possibility of an engine to "spin up" quickly (delta rev/time) are two different stories. In first and second gear the max possible delta rev/time is simply not high enough to make the wheels spin. Typical symptom on all diesel cars and delty rev/time is especially bad on the 2valve engines because the turbo spins up relatively slow. This is a problem of engine design and diesel cumbustion speed.
The symptom can be improoved with a good tuning but not totally cured.


Hope yours is a joke :joyman::joyman::joyman::joyman:!!!

Torque is <force*lever arm> and this is a "moment". Torque transmitted to wheels opposes moment of inertia and if this equation wins on attrition between tyre and street you get spinning. Torque trasmitted to wheels is <torque on engine - torque absorbed by transmission> and torque absorbed by transmission is <torque lost in frictions + moment of inertia of gearbox> and gearbox increses his moment of inertia everytime you step up gear selected. So obviously the higher gear you select, the more moment of inertia you'll get and the lower moment to the wheel you'll use for winning attrition and spin wheels. This is the reason why dynos calculate lost power (coming from lost torque) when engine decelerates at the end of the test.

On this you can't correct nothing because it is just physics.

If the explanation is complicate, I think it's enough to say that I chipped hundreds of 1.9 8v 105 engines (BLS) with spinning wheels in 1st and 2nd gear more then in 3rd gear. As you know BMM engine is just a "pimped" 1.9 105 with the same identical layout (turbocharger in the same side and position of 1.9 and opposite to BKD, intake manifold on the back as 1.9 and opposite to BKD, injectors from old 1.9tdi ARL/ASZ and different from BKD) but larger pistons, different turbo and injectors; so why the same engine spins in 1st and 2nd more than in 3rd in 1.9 version and spins in 3rd but not in 1st and 2nd in 2.0 version?

Remember I told you the lack of power in 1st and 2nd gear is evident and you can notice the same behaviour as if there would be a limiter.

Assuming limiters are setted to high to affect torque, what else could give lack of torque just in the first 2 gears and only in BLS and not in BMM?

easytech
4th December, 2011, 11:18 AM
Do a simple test with vagcom and you can see if the limiters are active and the value, I seen this only with DSG gearbox.

filecloud
4th December, 2011, 12:04 PM
@teoturo
Your definition of torque is perfect. I have also tuned many cars in the last 22years but this does not matter.
Your torque source forgets about the internal inertia of the engine. Inertia not only by mass but also by regulation and control disatvantages. And the next step is how and edc is calculating torque. It calculates it by internal model of delta rev/time, combustion energy and reverse calculation of fuel injection. That's what i wanted to point out.

Ok. Let's assume my statement is wrong.
If you say you can easily make the wheels spin on BLS, BKC and other 1.9l engines. Then there must be a significant difference in the regulation processes of 1.9 and 2.0 edc16 cars. Since one is held back and the other one not.
Do you agree so far?
Please give us any chipnumber of a BLS or similar car where you can make the wheels spin and i can compare the D**** to this BMM engine. Please pick a u34 ecu since the BMM was a u34 ecu.
greetings,
filecloud

teoturo
4th December, 2011, 08:19 PM
@teoturo
Your definition of torque is perfect. I have also tuned many cars in the last 22years but this does not matter.
Your torque source forgets about the internal inertia of the engine. Inertia not only by mass but also by regulation and control disatvantages. And the next step is how and edc is calculating torque. It calculates it by internal model of delta rev/time, combustion energy and reverse calculation of fuel injection. That's what i wanted to point out.

Ok. Let's assume my statement is wrong.
If you say you can easily make the wheels spin on BLS, BKC and other 1.9l engines. Then there must be a significant difference in the regulation processes of 1.9 and 2.0 edc16 cars. Since one is held back and the other one not.
Do you agree so far?
Please give us any chipnumber of a BLS or similar car where you can make the wheels spin and i can compare the D**** to this BMM engine. Please pick a u34 ecu since the BMM was a u34 ecu.
greetings,
filecloud

Internal inertia of engine makes no difference between BLS and BMM as injectors and turbocharger are not part of cinematic chain so do not affect efficiency considering engine has the same structure and basis.
Regulation has no significant differences, I already compared BLS and BMM and found nothing that can justify original BMM has more torque in 1st and 2nd gear then BLS, but chipped BLS can reach higher values of torque in 1st and 2nd gear then chipped BMM. If you compare a BLS and a BMM both chipped with the same criteria, you'll see BLS is much more fast then BMM in 1st and 2nd gear, but BMM starts recuperating in 3rd gear and in 4th gear.

Remember that all BMM and BLS have DPF as standard, so both can be just U34. Old U31 were for 2.0tdi 140 BKD second generation (BKD was born with U1) and 1.9tdi 105 BXE (which is evolution of BKC which was equipped with U1).

Attached you can find a BLS file as requested.

Thanks for your help, it's almost a nightmare this of BMM first gears :bawling:.

filecloud
4th December, 2011, 08:38 PM
...Regulation has no significant differences, I already compared BLS and BMM and found nothing that can justify...

I disagree. Compare the two files again. I see major differences especially in maps scaled in Nm/s. This should be interesting for you to test.
Please check at the car and report
greetings,
filecloud

teoturo
4th December, 2011, 09:17 PM
I disagree. Compare the two files again. I see major differences especially in maps scaled in Nm/s. This should be interesting for you to test.
Please check at the car and report
greetings,
filecloud

You cut part of my statement... I said

Regulation has no significant differences, I already compared BLS and BMM and found nothing that can justify original BMM has more torque in 1st and 2nd gear then BLS, but chipped BLS can reach higher values of torque in 1st and 2nd gear then chipped BMM.
This means assuming your supposition is right, cars would show same behaviour in original set-up and it's not like this, as behaviour comes just with chipped cars.

Could you please explain me what you mean with Nm/s? What is "s", seconds? Because I don't see any curve limitating torque-acceleration, just pure torque limitations.

filecloud
4th December, 2011, 09:37 PM
Hello
Excuse me. YOU said you see no significant differences in the files. I said i do see some which are worth testing. And some are scaled in Nm/s

Yes "s" in physical terms and D***** means seconds. And any map that affects Nm/s will possibly reduce the "release" of torque/time after you put your foot down. Means it keeps the engine from spinning up quickly. This will affect the car in lower gears more than in higher gears. You pointed that out perfect in your torque explanation.

If so then you should see that in your vag-com log when you log drivers whish and produced torque over time depending on gears.
So the next step should be that you send us some logs from an unbraked dyno in shootout mode or from acceleration drive downhill from your car.
greetings,
filecloud

Garfyld
4th December, 2011, 09:39 PM
Thank you... It helps...

teoturo
5th December, 2011, 07:03 AM
Hello
Excuse me. YOU said you see no significant differences in the files. I said i do see some which are worth testing. And some are scaled in Nm/s

Yes "s" in physical terms and D***** means seconds. And any map that affects Nm/s will possibly reduce the "release" of torque/time after you put your foot down. Means it keeps the engine from spinning up quickly. This will affect the car in lower gears more than in higher gears. You pointed that out perfect in your torque explanation.

If so then you should see that in your vag-com log when you log drivers whish and produced torque over time depending on gears.
So the next step should be that you send us some logs from an unbraked dyno in shootout mode or from acceleration drive downhill from your car.
greetings,
filecloud

This could affect torque I agree. Could you please suggest me addresses of these torque/time limitation curves? I would like to take a look on the strategy and understand it before calling back one car and make tests.
Curious that you found torque/time limitation curves higher on BLS 105 than on BMM 140.

Thanks a lot.

filecloud
5th December, 2011, 07:28 AM
...Curious that you found torque/time limitation curves higher on BLS 105 than on BMM 140.


Simple explanation: Maps may be disabled on BLS so they contain max value?

teoturo
5th December, 2011, 07:34 PM
Simple explanation: Maps may be disabled on BLS so they contain max value?

And can you suggest me addresses of these torque/time limitation curves?