which system are legal now for pubs / club for epl games

[pob639]

Hi all ,
Been asked by a club local to where I live what system they can install and is legal to get football (epl) same ones sky show and anyother ones ie 3PM sats an advantage.
I've suggested an official viasat receiver and card but after a lot of reading getting confused that are these even legal for use in side clubs/pubs.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated ie suppliers installers and legality of European satellite football after Karen Murthy case.

Thanks pob639

[RuberDuck]

Technically you can use any card in your own home but even after the recent ruling you cant use any of them that show the EPL logo on the screen in a pub or public venue as they breach copyrite law.

[ramjet]

Hi all ,
Been asked by a club local to where I live what system they can install and is legal to get football (epl) same ones sky show and anyother ones ie 3PM sats an advantage.
I've suggested an official viasat receiver and card but after a lot of reading getting confused that are these even legal for use in side clubs/pubs.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated ie suppliers installers and legality of European satellite football after Karen Murthy case.

Thanks pob639

not been decided yet m8 , that is the simple answer

I believe it goes back to the uk high court in a couple of months to decide on the what ifs , and even then I expect it to run and run a lot longer than that due to logos , copyright , performing rights etc

I feel sure the epl will have something up their sleeves

but your question has been asked for maybe 5 to 10 years or more and still there is no actual answer , there may never be an actual answer that could be wrote down in black and white that everybody sticks to

so the fact that karen murphy won her case wasnt the end of the matter , its merely part 5 in a 100 part saga

[flyingpig]

Agree with the 2 posts above...

You can use any legit card from a pan european broadcaster to show games broadcast from any country in the EU in this country. You cannot show the EPL copyrighted logo without their permission in this country.

What you cant do is card share, but a legit card is okay. Expect however some form of challenge from the EPL...

[Manic01]

Sky react to pub ruling
Sky Sports have reacted to Portsmouth landlady Karen Murphy winning her legal battle to show Premier League games via an imported satellite from Greece.

The PL rights holders have written to licensees warning them they are breaching copyright by screening a PL feed that does not show Skys pint glass or red dot logo that authorises pub broadcasts.

But increasing numbers of fans are now watching live matches on laptops picking up foreign feeds via links advertised on Twitter. The PL, aware of this latest threat to rights values, are banking on the Digital Economy Act making it easier to police the internet


Read more: Apple want Premier League TV rights: Charles Sale | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2081869/Apple-want-Premier-League-TV-rights-Charles-Sale.html#ixzz1iZadcUkD)

[TheCoder]

Technically you can use any card in your own home but even after the recent ruling you cant use any of them that show the EPL logo on the screen in a pub or public venue as they breach copyrite law.

Technically its illegal to show anything to a public audience without the copyright holders permission regardless of whether or not it has an added logo.

When a pub pays sky etc they are effectively purchasing public performance rights (up to a certain audience size), thats why it costs a lot more than a domestic subscription. If you purchase a domestic subscription from abroad, that still does not give you public performance rights, only domestic rights (ie, only to be displayed within a domestic household).

Purchasing public performance rights from abroad, well, thats where things get interesting and seems to be whats presently being discussed in Europe. Ultimately though, rights holders will win as they really hold all the power. International treaty already gives rights holders the power to decide when, where, and how their material can be released into a particular geographic region or even the right to with-hold entirely release into a region. The EU is fully signed up to these treaties even though they apparently go against internal EU treaties on freedom of movement of trade and goods (although such a thing doesn't actually exist as all EU countries restrict trade with other EU countries in some form or other).

In the end, the argument really boild down to a simple question of whether a rights holder has the power to instruct its agents to sell only within a particular geographic region. Regardless of the EU, I suspect the ultimate answer will be yes, the do indeed have that right. Any other answer takes away a rights holders rights to fundamentaly control their own product.

[blueflash234]

basically nothing has changed

[pob639]

Thank you all for replies been a great help on clearing up a few things.
just one more question how are all these other pubs , clubs and bars getting away with showing football via other providers without being forced to switch hem off by EPL ?

[ramjet]

by breaking the rules , until they get found out , same as if you speed down a road doing 40 in a 30 zone

why do you think the warnings are going out ?

[seamouse]

this is my 2p


As far as im aware the below is LEGAL

you are allowed to put any dish on your building and point it to any sat in the sky to get channels, you are allowed to use any sat box to get them, known now as freesat

if you look into the pub lady, it was ruled in the EU that you then are allowed to use any card from a provider in the EU and watch the channels here

IE lets say i moved from poland to work here, i put up my dish, my box and card from home and use it here LEGALLY

Portsmouth pub lady wins fight to televise top UK football games via Greece | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353341/Portsmouth-pub-lady-wins-fight-televise-UK-football-games-Greece.html)

so even CS is legal in a way (grey area) , as you are paying a company for a service. Yes it may not use a card, but you are paying someone in the EU

The grey area i see is the logos and adverts, BUT as the boxes do not use the SKY menus, epg, this gets pass some of it
and if in your own home, no one will know.

A simple sticker in top left corner could even solve this in bars. clubs, but who knows yet

please remember to show a image, you do need a public entertainment licence

[TheCoder]

so even CS is legal in a way (grey area) , as you are paying a company for a service. Yes it may not use a card, but you are paying someone in the EU

Definately not legal. The use of an illegal service to circumvent provider security in order to avoid the payment of viewing fee's to the legitimate rights holders is classed as theft. There's absolutely nothing legal about purchasing CS services !

The only time it may ever be considered as a grey area is if you were sharing a card to multiple devices in your own home. That would, strictly speaking, be a terms and conditions violation rather than criminal.

[RuberDuck]

this is my 2p



you are allowed to put any dish on your building and point it to any sat in the sky to get channels, you are allowed to use any sat box to get them, known now as freesat

if you look into the pub lady, it was ruled in the EU that you then are allowed to use any card from a provider in the EU and watch the channels here

IE lets say i moved from poland to work here, i put up my dish, my box and card from home and use it here LEGALLY

Portsmouth pub lady wins fight to televise top UK football games via Greece | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353341/Portsmouth-pub-lady-wins-fight-televise-UK-football-games-Greece.html)

so even CS is legal in a way (grey area) , as you are paying a company for a service. Yes it may not use a card, but you are paying someone in the EU

The grey area i see is the logos and adverts, BUT as the boxes do not use the SKY menus, epg, this gets pass some of it
and if in your own home, no one will know.

A simple sticker in top left corner could even solve this in bars. clubs, but who knows yet

please remember to show a image, you do need a public entertainment licence

you really do not know what your talking about. for example take your sky box . card and dish to poland then ring sky and tell them what you have done. I bet you any thing you want your sub will be cancelled.

[pob639]

So basically if club wants to be totally legal its to get a sky uk and espn subscription :-( so if that's right does anyone know the price of a sub for a pub/club or a site to get a price from ?

[excollier]

It'll likely cost several thousands of pounds.
Good 'ol Roopy!

[dctyper]

tbh, it might all change soon anyway. the epl rights go out to auction every 4 years or so and sky usually buy the biggest chunk for the uk market. all systems are legal but its still a grey area for pubs.

why will it change? apple have registered their interest in the rights

dc

[Manic01]

Al Jazeera as well.

[seamouse]

if you took your box and card to poland then yes, you would be moaned at, as sky UK is only a foot print over uk you would find something there maybe know as sky.pol

thousands of uk people take their UK sky cards to places like spain for holidays each year, which as well is breaking the terms of service, but it happens and cant be stopped.

on some other sat boxes, u dont get the pint glass icon as there is no red button / interactive services on some sat boxes

[flyingpig]

I was talking to a specialist in the field of copyright law / intellectual property about this case, and he was saying that the EPL would be very hard pushed and advised against taking any publican to court over the broadcast of logo's as they would almost undoubtledly lose the case.

This, after long discussions was agreed with a few others based on the fact that the EPL do not give single permssions or licenses for use of copyright, so you can not be in breach. They (the EPL) publicse their logo during other broadcasts other than EPL games and any public broadcast would not be able to remove their logo if they did not have permission (license or some other ponsey term).

After all said and done - apparently it is a nonsense and any publican, landlord, or place that has the rights to make public broadcasts for entertainment cannot be stopped using a foreign provider, that is until next time a high flying lawyer wants to make a few quid and make a challenge.

[Manic01]

Pubs face court for illegally screening matches
Thursday 5th January 2012, 11:00AM GMT.



Pubs illegally showing Premier League football matches on foreign decoders and satellites will continue to face prosecution despite a European Court ruling they believed offered them protection, it can be revealed today.

The Red Lion pub in Willenhall was this week hit with a ?4,000 fine and investigators today warned they are continuing to monitor others across the region.

Landlords across Staffordshire and the Black Country believed a recent ruling from a top European judge opened the gates for them to be able to show games through cut-price networks.

But although that ruling is likely to become law in the UK following a High Court hearing on February 24, it currently remains illegal to show games unless it is through a Sky or ESPN subscription package.

Convictions can be appealed, but the cost of doing so would see venues having to pay thousands of pounds in legal fees.

Wolves today welcomed the conviction of Willenhalls Red Lion pub, which was fined on Tuesday for showing a game through an Albanian-based TV firm.

Club chief executive Jez Moxey has criticised the use of foreign decoders, saying attendances at Molineux were 2,500 down last season because of the problem.

Spokesman Matt Grayson said today: It has been clear all along that the use of foreign equipment not only breaches copyright law, but also contravenes the 3pm closed window on a Saturday that states no broadcaster can legitimately show games at that time.
We welcome the fact that the Premier League continues to closely monitor those people illegally broadcasting football matches
West Bromwich Albion chief executive Mark Jenkins said: ;We wholeheartedly support the Premier League;s efforts to stamp out the illegal screening of matches because it is unfair on the fans who attend the clubs fixtures
Landlords today said they feel they have been left in limbo following the prosecution of the Red Lion. Ian Scott, who has managed Bar Sport in High Green, Cannock, for 12 years, said showing games through foreign decoders brought a lot of custom to the bar. heaving on a Saturday, especially for Wolves games he said.

In the Red Lion case, it seems very harsh that the authorities have been so heavy-handed over something that will be legal next month
Meanwhile Mark Whyman, landlord of the Coach and Horses, in Mill Bank, Stafford, remained defiant over his showing of games through a ?200-a-month ViaSat system. He said: Im not going to stop. I need the custom
Pete Towler, landlord at Tipton, shows games through a foreign decoder.

He said: Its such a shame because it only seems to be the smaller independent pubs that are being hit with fines.

[TheCoder]

After all said and done - apparently it is a nonsense and any publican, landlord, or place that has the rights to make public broadcasts for entertainment cannot be stopped using a foreign provider, that is until next time a high flying lawyer wants to make a few quid and make a challenge.

All very true, BUT, the aquisition of the public broadcast licence is really the problem. Rights holders can, and do, stipulate that any agent is only licenced to resell those rights in a specific geographic region. For any agent to knowingly sell outside of their assigned region would be a copyright offence and would also make the sale null and void, thus meaning the end customer did NOT have the rights for public showing.

In this particular case the legalities will very much depend on how the EPL worded any contract to the 'foreign' providers. If they stipulated geographic zoning then the foreign provider does not have a resale right to sell public performance rights outside of its geographic zone, making any such sale null and void.