Boxer 2.0 HDI starting problem

[VTS_Tibi]

Hi Guys!

I have a Boxer I. 2.0 8V HDI (engine code: RHV with Bosch injection system) here with a very strange problem. I turn on the key, the fuel lift pump primes the system, Lexia shows around 8bar in the common rail. I start cranking the engine, the rpm rises to around 280rpm, and the fuel pressure goes up to around 78-80bar and will not move any higher.

Naturally the engine won't start. BUT! If I spray just a TINY amount of starter fluid or brake cleaner into the intake pipe the car starts immediately and it will run fine (idles well, pulls and drives well) up until I stop the engine, as it will not start on it own again.

Unfortunately I'm not the first mechanic on this car, and the previous guy replaced the following components with brand new parts:

-fuel lift pump
-high pressure fuel pump
-high pressure regulator valve
-four injectors
-common rail pressure sensor

And to make sure the new components are faultless, he even had them checked by an authorized BOSCH diesel centre. So I can say he spent more on the car than it really worth, and the problem is still there.

So literally all components of the fuel system has been replaced.


Could anybody shed a light to this?



p.s.: I had an Audi A3 TDI back in a few years, which had a bad ECU map, so at the cranking rpm the fuel pressure was not enough. A guy modified a map to raise the fuel pressure at the cranking rpm and the car has been fine since. Could this problem with the Boxer similar to this?

[richy_rich]

Could be an air leak somewhere on the fuel system?

Btw, I had a quick google to see if that was a common problem on boxers so I could be more precise as to where to start looking and I found this comment on an inferior forum...

"Dont fix it, forget you own it, leave it in a wooded area so people cant see it, you are going to need to take a mortgage out to keep it alive."

:) :) :)

[Meat-Head]

so, if you put a temparayy wire on the stater (to re crank) - start engine, put in gear, dip cluch and crank, does it start?

apparntly front wing near ecu loom rots?

[VTS_Tibi]

will check the wires around the ECU

Could you please describe what do you want to check with that above? I'll try to tow the car and see whether it starts or not by relesing the clutch - this could narrow the problem down.

[richy_rich]

Not sure... but I think he means stall it and then try to restart it?

[JustMeAgain]

Tried a compression check? Maybe head gasket is letting compression go and will only run at speed. If gasket is blown between bores one will be drawing mixture volume as the next cylinder will be incresing. Remaining 2 cylinders will be insufficent to carry the dead two.

[VTS_Tibi]

I haven't done a compression check, as that 80bar rail pressure is ~~~~ all at starting rpms, so now I'm on the look for a tool which could measure the rail pressure (simple pressure gauge which goes up to around 1500bar) so I could compare the real pressure to the one I see with the Lexia, given by the sensor in the rail.

[JustMeAgain]

Hi Guys!

I start cranking the engine, the rpm rises to around 280rpm, and the fuel pressure goes up to around 78-80bar and will not move any higher.

Naturally the engine won't start. BUT! If I spray just a TINY amount of starter fluid or brake cleaner into the intake pipe the car starts immediately and it will run fine (idles well, pulls and drives well) up until I stop the engine, as it will not start on it own again.




But when the engine was running at 900rpm did you measure the rail pressure with lexia? Naturally at 280rpm rail pressure will not be high but admitedly it should be higher than that.

If rail pressure is down it can only be high pressure pump or rail sensor, which as you state are new.

[ammarben]

measure the injector return fuel

[VTS_Tibi]

measure the injector return fuel

The return fuel is ok. When cranking there is no return fuel, when the engine idles there is only a really small amount and all the four injectors release the same quantity.



But when the engine was running at 900rpm did you measure the rail pressure with lexia? Naturally at 280rpm rail pressure will not be high but admitedly it should be higher than that.

If rail pressure is down it can only be high pressure pump or rail sensor, which as you state are new.

The rail pressure is around 300bar when the engine is on idle. So it's Ok.

When cranking it's 78-80bar.

[paddyp]

(simple pressure gauge which goes up to around 1500bar)

Very expensive and you'd probably need to make threaded adapter.

You already have a pressure gauge that goes to 1500bar - the 'new' rail sensor you can measure the voltage directly on that. Check the reference voltage to that too just to be sure.

Fuel Pressure Sensor – Common Rail Diesel automotive waveform captured using a PicoScope automotive oscilloscope (http://www.picoauto.com/waveforms/Sensors/FuelPressureSensor/wave120.html)


Unfortunately I'm not the first mechanic on this car

Is this other mechanic a personal friend of yours because otherwise I wouldn't rule out the pump, sensors and injectors just because of what he said he did, people say lots of things.

Make sure to double check the rail sensor part number.

[VTS_Tibi]

Very expensive and you'd probably need to make threaded adapter.

You already have a pressure gauge that goes to 1500bar - the 'new' rail sensor you can measure the voltage directly on that. Check the reference voltage to that too just to be sure.

Fuel Pressure Sensor – Common Rail Diesel automotive waveform captured using a PicoScope automotive oscilloscope (http://www.picoauto.com/waveforms/Sensors/FuelPressureSensor/wave120.html)



Is this other mechanic a personal friend of yours because otherwise I wouldn't rule out the pump, sensors and injectors just because of what he said he did, people say lots of things.

Make sure to double check the rail sensor part number.

Thanks for the waveform! Will check that too! He really did replace those components, as it's clearly visiblwe that they are new, and I also saw them being tested in the Bosch service.

[Larue]

Just idea. Does it starts with battery charger connected? Turn charging on MAX and try. If it's starts then just next starter, battery or some bad ground.
Another idea. Check for voltage drop under cranking.
Solution as above.
Have seen some cars with these problems. Last Pug 307 sorted with new battery and starter.
Regards
Larue

[paddyp]

Just idea. Does it starts with battery charger connected? Turn charging on MAX and try. If it's starts then just next starter, battery or some bad ground.
Another idea. Check for voltage drop under cranking.
Solution as above.
Have seen some cars with these problems. Last Pug 307 sorted with new battery and starter.
Regards
Larue

He said the starter turns the engine at 280rpm and its still only reporting 80bar so thats not the problem.

[Larue]

He said the starter turns the engine at 280rpm and its still only reporting 80bar so thats not the problem.
I understand that fact. It might be turning too slow or drawing too much current from battery. The same effect you can get with bad battery.

[Meat-Head]

I understand that fact. It might be turning too slow or drawing too much current from battery. The same effect you can get with bad battery.

Good point, really can't be bothered to link, but toyota avensis, diesel, non start when hot, crank long time, nothing, feature, the starter wipes out the crank signal.

To elimnate, park on a hill top, like a cliff and PUSH OFF

Meat

[paddyp]

I understand that fact. It might be turning too slow or drawing too much current from battery. The same effect you can get with bad battery.

At 280rpm a bosch CP1 pump should be making nearly 200bar its making less than half that.

Maybe if you fitted twin batteries you could nudge the pressure over the 120bar the ecu is looking for but that doesn't solve the problem.

From HDI Manual:
"As soon as the starter motor is operated, the injection ECU sets the value of fuel high pressure from the coolant temperature."

The ecu adjusts the pressure regulator according to the coolant temperature from an ecu map, the system then runs in open loop mode until it hits 400bar at which point the pressure regulator is adjusted according to the rail pressure sensor.

This means a bad temperature sensor/wiring/ecu input could cause the ragulator to be set wrong.

I think your pump may have the third piston deactivation solenoid, I assume that the third piston should be engaged for starting so try disconnecting the connector from that and see if it pushes it over the magic 120bar.

[VTS_Tibi]

Could we have that HDI manual please? Seems to be a really good information source!

(and for me it's time to crack on with this Boxer..)

[Poptest]

Check if pressure relief valve on rail is leaking.

[paddyp]

Could we have that HDI manual please? Seems to be a really good information source!

(and for me it's time to crack on with this Boxer..)

http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/hdi/hdi.doc

Its for another dw10 engine but 99% should apply.

Lots more hdi related stuff there: http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/hdi/

In fact lots of interesting stuff: http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/

[Larue]

At 280rpm a bosch CP1 pump should be making nearly 200bar its making less than half that.

Maybe if you fitted twin batteries you could nudge the pressure over the 120bar the ecu is looking for but that doesn't solve the problem.

From HDI Manual:
"As soon as the starter motor is operated, the injection ECU sets the value of fuel high pressure from the coolant temperature."

The ecu adjusts the pressure regulator according to the coolant temperature from an ecu map, the system then runs in open loop mode until it hits 400bar at which point the pressure regulator is adjusted according to the rail pressure sensor.

This means a bad temperature sensor/wiring/ecu input could cause the ragulator to be set wrong.

I think your pump may have the third piston deactivation solenoid, I assume that the third piston should be engaged for starting so try disconnecting the connector from that and see if it pushes it over the magic 120bar.
Not going to argue with you. That all manual thing is working always pretty well!....on manual. Thanks for that!
Sadly it doesn't work so good in real life.:evil:
Especially with French "cars".
As MHM has said a long time love you DK ago: french cars always has two faults.
So....it could be worth start from second fault?
What else is wrong on that van apart from non starting?

[paddyp]

Sadly it doesn't work so good in real life.:evil:

Sadly in real life too many people 'diagnose' without the manual or a good understaning of how it all works by replacing high cost components unecessarily all at the cost of the customer. What my auld dad would describe as a 'parts jockey'.

[smokey08]

I had a fiat ducato with exactly the same problem. I changed the fuel pressure sensor in the rail and it sorted it.

I Would check the resistance of the wiring to this component as it has already been replaced. There is a earth wire from the gearbox to chassis that give a lot of problems on these (dont think its your problem but others have mentioned a bad earth).

[Meat-Head]

There is a earth wire from the gearbox to chassis that give a lot of problems on these


Yeah, we at M-H-M work on the 'Minimum Effort, Maximum Profit'

Top engine mount, unbolt it, jamb a 'braided earth strap' under it, then same on other side of engine mount, done 3 or so

Meat

[VTS_Tibi]

Update on this!

We had a bit of time with this wee car. First of all, the starter motor was ~~~~ed as it is, as the locating peg was not present, so the starter motor was sitting in an angle so, onyl the top of the tooth were in contact. This was repaired, but the starting rpm did not get any higher.

A guy measured the resistance of the wire going to the rail pressure sensor and it was around 1ohm.

We've tried to tow the car, and in third gear with the car only barely rolling I slowly released the clutch and it started immediately. Really, the engine did not turn two, and it started and the speed was around 20km/h...

A few mins. ago we tried cranking the engine and with the starter motor the rpm is 270, the rail pressure is 80bar. With a bit of brake cleaner sprayed in, the rpm rises and the pressure goes up to around 100bar where the engine fires into life (and as soon as the pressure goes above 400bar - I saw 430bar - it starts regulating the pressure according to this value, just as paddyp wrote)

Coolant temperature was 9?C, and it was 11?C in the garage, so that is also OK.

Tomorrow I'll check the rail pressure sensors output with an oscilloscope, and will keep on checking things...

[sinisha]

Checking electric fuel pump

[smirnoff_rules]

does sound like the pump in the tank to me , not enough pressure before the high pressure pump kicks in , had one last year on a partner van , the pump was working but could hear it wasnt sounding right , banged the bottom of the tank and away it went , change pump started fine

[Meat-Head]

As MHM has said a long time love you DK ago: french cars always has two faults.


Update on this!

1) We had a bit of time with this wee car. First of all, the starter motor was ~~~~ed as it is

"2")and will keep on checking things...

I rest my case m'lud

[VTS_Tibi]

I rest my case m'lud

lol :D


There's a new low pressure pump in the tank... (forgot out that from the list...)

Will upload the graphs I've recoreded with Lexia on this car, and on a Boxer which works OK.

[smokey08]

I dont think the rail pressure is high enough (or it is high enough and the sensor in reading to low). There has to be a certain amount of pressure in the rail before the ecu will start opening the injectors.

[Meat-Head]

I dont think the rail pressure is high enough (or it is high enough and the sensor in reading to low). There has to be a certain amount of pressure in the rail before the ecu will start opening the injectors.

1) YOUR RISK - put a 100 ohm resistor between positive and senor output via a relay

On cranking, relay, 'shorts out' sensor, via resistor, thinks it's got wacking pressure

2) Sorry, did somebody say crimp the fuel return pipe already

ON TOPIC:-

Had some guy with a "PingPong Mustard" or something, 35,000 miles from new, had EVERYTHING, coils, ecu, throttle, exhaust, cat & emptyed the ashtray, still had prolem of 'no power to drive fast'

All anybody could find was the fuel pressure dropped instantly rather than holding.

Part of fuel pump, non return valve, $34576879765654 + TAX for a new one, fitted it, cured it.

Can only guess (think like an air compresser) the pressure in the rail was 'fighting' the pump.

3) Can you install a non return valve

Fuel one way valve petrol diesel non return carb 10mm | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fuel-one-way-valve-petrol-diesel-non-return-carb-10mm-/290661616278?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_Boat_Engines _EngineParts_SM&hash=item43acc84a96)

[VTS_Tibi]

Right, I had a bit of time to upload the graphs I got using Lexia.

First of all, here's the graph when the engine is cranking, but it will not start.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k545/TestorVTS/jumper_indtzs_circle.png

It's not visible, but when the low pressure fuel lift pump operates, the pressure in the common rail is around 6-8bar. When cranking the pressure will not go above 80bar, thus the engine will not start. Quote from the manual: "The injection ECU only operates the injectors when the pressure exceeds 120 bar."

The operation of the high pressure fuel regulator is also OK, as to quote the manual again: "In the event of starting problems, the injection ECU forces a rise in pressure by sending a maximum OCR command of 40% to 80% (high pressure fuel regulator)." This is clearly visible on the graph.


The following graphs were recorded when the engine started with just a TINY amount of brake cleanr sprayed into the intake.:

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k545/TestorVTS/jumper_fktiszttval.png


You can see that when the engine receives that small amount of fuel (now the brake cleaner) the rpm rises, thus the rail pressure goes above 120bar and the engine starts immediately.

The high pressure fuel regulator is working good again, as: "the system then runs in open loop mode until it hits 400bar at which point the pressure regulator is adjusted according to the rail pressure sensor." And you can see that as soon as it hits 400bar the regulator opens.



Now, the last graph was measured on a good working Boxer HDI (not a 2.0, but a 2.2 but the operating principles should be the same, and also the ECU family is the same EDC15C7):

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k545/TestorVTS/Hypo.png


On the fauly car the pressure is: 77bar@271rpm whereas on the good working car it's: 141bar@282rpm.

Please let me know if you find anything abnormal in those graphs!

[Meat-Head]

*BRILLIANT WORK*

Think you might be easier just going on ebay for a lokk around

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2) NEW!! UNIVERSAL ETHER INJECTOR KIT #5801001KT - pm | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-UNIVERSAL-ETHER-INJECTOR-KIT-5801001KT-pm-/320811223067?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab1d6c81b)

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[smokey08]

Have you got a pressure transducer + T-piece that will measure the rail pressure? if so scope the pressure with it and compare to what lexia reads.

Maybe get hold of a previously enjoyed rail or nick it off the other boxer you have there for testing purposes.

[VTS_Tibi]

I'm on the lookout for such pressure gauge (although it's not quite easy to get hold of that...)

Btw. what should I measure on the high pressure fuel regulator? On one pin there's 12V, on the other there's constant 3.75V ??????


Reading the manual:


"When the high pressure fuel regulator is not energised:the pressure is limited to ~100 bar.

When the high pressure fuel regulator is not energised :
- The fuel high pressure opposes the mechanical action of the spring (13).
- The regulator opens for a high pressure which is greater than the spring pressure (~ 100 bar).
- The fuel released by the high pressure regulator returns to tank through the outlet "b". "



Here's the cutaway picture of the high pressure pump and the regulator:

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k545/TestorVTS/highpressurepump.png




As the fuel pressure sensor was designed to sense high pressures, and the spring design may not be that precise, so it can be possible that the pressure regulator is not energized, thus it is impossible to build up more than 100bar (which may be sensed as 70-80bar by the pressure sensor).

Gonna check the wiring soon.

[Meat-Head]

FPM-2680 Digital Auto Fuel Pressure Meter Tester Gauge | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FPM-2680-Digital-Auto-Fuel-Pressure-Meter-Tester-Gauge-/270780046977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f0bbf9e81)

Says if you have a problem, don't open cas they send another one.

Buy 1 get one free. lol

There needs to be a small amount of power flowing back to ecu - otherwise it will have no idea if somebody steals the parts.

Meat

[hamza338]

hi,

i think the circuit of bass pressur is ok because you have 70bar, in this case you have a prob in HP so unplug the connector of high pressure regulator valve and look in live data if the rail pressure incrise up to 80bar.

[407ron]

Just a long shot...but maybe unplug the rail pressure sensor and it should Default to around 400bar...?
Also If you have low pressure on the low pressure pump it will reflect on the high pressure pump side.
Ron.

[BRAVO6]

You need to start from scratch. It's not building pressure. I doubt if the pressure sensor is faulty because it's showing correct value once the engine starts.
So, either fuel supply problem, faulty hp pump, leaky injectors or pressure regulator.
Did you try pinch off fuel return.

[Meat-Head]

Just to add to this, *THINK* on froggy crap, when regulator is unplugged, it's FULL pressure - can cause damage - also if you unplu injector it can be damaged by the pressure.

As your been on it, for some time, *TRY* and only a *TRY* if you can - second vechile - same HDI set up - link a bit of "speaker wire" to the opposite car, then try starting at same time.

So each car is using the others pressure signal for a reading?

Only a thought.