DODGE RAM 3500 Probelm

[mathura]

I have a probelm with a dodge ram 3500 engine: year 2006

Engine will not start, only starts if you use starting fluid.
When it starts it idles good but if you touch the accelerator the RPM goes to maximum and engine speed will not return to idle with heavy black smoke.
Engine check light is on but I do not have scan tool for this vehicle, its OBD2

In called a guy to do a scan and he said its PO148 fuel error. Replaced fuel filter, rail pressure sensor, Fuel actuator but no improvement.

I hooked a mechanical guage to the high pressure rail, while cranking guage rises slowly from 0 to 850-950 psi.after using starting fluid and engine running at idle the pressure is 5400psi. I cannot accelerate because I am using a 6000psi guage.


Any help is appreciated

[hercamp]

same problem as isb or isc u ask before, to make a real test u not need replace injectors parts or test the pump actuator,

the first test is read the high press, if that read down of 1500 psi , mean fuel press lost ...in the injectors or pump, take off all returning line and connect each injector to measure tube , with that u can see if injector return air or fuel etc , if that fuel is too high your injector is bad and u will need replace parts ...after repair make a new test or fuel return ,because common rail injectors seems to fail at crank also after replace the parts .betwen 135 to 230 rpms ....the staring fluid crank at 350 to 500 and at high rpms u get high press. 205389

[26sutphen]

Mathura, same as last time ,don't know why cummins injectors fail at start up and duramax (isusu) fail at full load.I can say from experience not from reading online that a hard start on a cummins 99% of the time are injectors and the customer usually states, Oh I have been starting it with ether for months it needs glow plugs..... lol no glow plugs in a cummins it uses a grid heater and it would probably still start at 40* f with these hi pressure systems. My questions to you are 1- after the truck starts with ether does it run fine with full power 2- has the fuel economy gone down hill 3- can you command full rail pressure on an 06 I think is 26k . i have seen these injectors fail as early as 120xxx and usuly by 185-200k they need new injectors. This all depends on maintenance and quality of fuel. If you think of the injector tip as a 20k plus sand blasting nozzle with poor maintenance it wouldn't take long to wear a tip out and not have the injector tip or pintle function properly.Those injectors i have wont work in an 06 you need from 04.5 to 07.Also post the milage Good luck 26sutphen.. Just re-read, i said no start 99% of the time it injectors that's after the obvious Fuel filters ,fuel and good spark plugs lol

[26sutphen]

Add to above, The elevated idle is hanging injector that isn't closing properly.The fpr( fuel pressure regulator )is on the back of the cp3 pump with the wire hooked to it these do go bad with with poor fuel. This is why i asked if you can command rail pressure and watch it react accordingly.But the heavy black smoke tells me injector.....

[mathura]

Ok I requested six injectors from the customer, they have another Ram 3500 that has probelms with the ECM. I am going to take injectors out and put ino this one with the fuel probelm.

As soon as I installed injectors I will post and let you know how it goes

[26sutphen]

Any update ? Figured I would check in ....

[mathura]

Any update ? Figured I would check in ....

Customer is hesitant to make a decision they are asking if injectors cannot be serviced so I told them that locally it cannot be done still awaiting a response.

[oscarescodo]

hi mathura check this video on you tube will help Dodge Ram/Cummins 5.9L High Pressure Common Rail Diesel Engine Part 4 of 4 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/fvFHzrwiQfA) and thing I have done before is plug injectors one by one
and try to isolate the problem this will help regards.

[mathura]

Replaced six injectors, engine still had to be sprayed for initial start. left engine to idle, engine shut down after 30 seconds. Now the check engine light is flashing all the time and engine refuses to start even with starting fluid. You can also hear actuator pulsing all the time with ignition on

[26sutphen]

Mathura can you cycle the key on and off three times don't start the engine and read me the codes off the odometer?

[26sutphen]

Fuel actuator, are you referring to the injector pressure regulator on the back of the cp3 pump?

[mathura]

Mathura can you cycle the key on and off three times don't start the engine and read me the codes off the odometer?

Give me some guidance what the codes look like and surely I will provide this information, I am now stuck on this job and really needs some help

[26sutphen]

when you turn the key to the run off run off run and don't start the codes come up in the odometer where the the digital milage is posted on 99% of the trucks , The codes will reap p00xx ,p0xxx p0xxx done when the codes are finished p0700 is a companion code for another module.These problems didn't exhist before the injector change, this is strange

[mathura]

Fuel actuator, are you referring to the injector pressure regulator on the back of the cp3 pump?

Yes I am referring to pressure regulator on back of CP3 pump. Thanks for the instructions how to find codes, will work on it tomorrow and let you know

[26sutphen]

Also critical injector install procedure ,injector bolts 44 in lbs then back off connector tube installed balls up torque to 11 ft lbs then the hold down bolts to 89 in lbs then finish up. if you over tighten the tubes with a box wrench they bend and leak...

[oscarescodo]

hi mathura ON that trucks I use the cheap ELM 327 scan tool ,with that you can read codes and kepp an eye on live data ,as fuel pressure at the high side,asn on the videos you have to check low pressure fuel side on many of that trucks especially in Mexico find the strainer clogged.you can use external diesel fuel container to check this condition,sorry for mi poor english ,but I am spanish speaker.REGARDS

[mathura]

when you turn the key to the run off run off run and don't start the codes come up in the odometer where the the digital milage is posted on 99% of the trucks , The codes will reap p00xx ,p0xxx p0xxx done when the codes are finished p0700 is a companion code for another module.These problems didn't exhist before the injector change, this is strange

I did as per your instructions but nothing happens, what I also noticed is that I am not seeing the transmission display P R 1 2. After cycling key switch sometimes the transmission displays shows up. I am trying to get someone with a scan tool to see exactly what codes are there

[26sutphen]

You may have done this but I would like to go back to the basics, common rail is self priming on the injectors. There is a fuel pump in the tank This motor will run without the pump but if it fails the cp3 pump cant pull through it. Please check... 1- loosen the fuel filter turn the key on are we getting fuel ? Yes ok 2- fuel is good loosen an injector line a few turns and stay clear are we getting a good amount of fuel at the rail ? yes ok 3 is the tack moving in the truck while its cranking over ? yes ok check grounds on both batteries and make sure both batteries are good passenger side usually goes out first and the truck will do funny things. This is where I would start with no scanner . These problems weren't there before the injectors so im a little confused... im also not as good on the computer as I would like to be..

[mathura]

You may have done this but I would like to go back to the basics, common rail is self priming on the injectors. There is a fuel pump in the tank This motor will run without the pump but if it fails the cp3 pump cant pull through it. Please check... 1- loosen the fuel filter turn the key on are we getting fuel ? Yes ok 2- fuel is good loosen an injector line a few turns and stay clear are we getting a good amount of fuel at the rail ? yes ok 3 is the tack moving in the truck while its cranking over ? yes ok check grounds on both batteries and make sure both batteries are good passenger side usually goes out first and the truck will do funny things. This is where I would start with no scanner . These problems weren't there before the injectors so im a little confused... im also not as good on the computer as I would like to be..
1- yes getting fuel from electric priming pump 2. yes getting high pressure to injectors 3, will need to observe tachometer 4.Ok I do have weak batteries I will full charge and try again Thanks so much

[mathura]

I had the vehicle scanned today and active code is P0148 so it seems replacing injectors was not the answer. I guess that I will have to start all over again. OK let me mention that the batteries was playing trick on me with check lamp flashing all the time everything is as before when the vehicle came to me. Any step by step guidance is appreciated. Regards

[26sutphen]

Goodmorning, Does the truck start and run now on its own with no ether? Before you changed the injectors you had already replaced fuel filter , fpr on pump and rail pressure sensor on the fuel rail ?

[mathura]

Goodmorning, Does the truck start and run now on its own with no ether? Before you changed the injectors you had already replaced fuel filter , fpr on pump and rail pressure sensor on the fuel rail ?

The truck still does not start without ether and when you hit the accelerator rpm goes to maximum and then comes down a little and keeps surging with heavy black smoke

[26sutphen]

Before you touch the throttle does the truck idle fine without a miss or studder?

[26sutphen]

I will try to explain my way of thinking. If the truck only starts on ether and then runs fine = injectors , If the truck starts hard and then surges at idle and clatters this could be the rail sensor or fuel control but you changed both of them.. The truck reving full throttle with new injectors tells me the tps is screwed up but this has nothing to do with the no start because the ecm sees 0% throttle position to start.One thing I didn't ask is there any kind of performance mods on the truck? The above isn't the order of troubleshooting this is what I came up with after looking what was already changed on the truck and what it was doing.....

[26sutphen]

Another thing is you may have addressed half the problem with the fpr and fps now the rail isn't holding pressure because the relief valve is stuck open or weak this is ontop of the rail behind number one injector.If this is blowing off it gets pretty hot returning the fuel to the tank at 5000+ psi.

[26sutphen]

As you requested if I had to troubleshoot p0148 delivery code on a fresh vehicle I would proceed as follows...1- basics low pressure pump is good, fuel has no water and my filters are clean....2- I would put my scanner on and check commanded rail pressure and actual if these didn't match I would look at the commanded % of the fpr to make sure it was closing to build desired rail pressure. If its closing and were not getting rail pressure 1 of 4 things rail sensor is no good, fpr is stuck and not really closing not really trying to build pressure, weak cp3 pump not capable of pressure or an open pressure relief valve. This is all I would check for that code.. Now with your truck I said injectors because of the no start except with ether and it idled fine, the elevated idle and sometimes a hanging rev that takes a minute to return to idle can be caused by a weak worn injector. The cp3 pump on these trucks aren't that smart they are just a pump that makes variable pressure controlled by the fpr, The injectors are the brains in this injection system. The cp3 does fail but its not that common. If the rail pressure relief is open and the crank speed is low this could cause the no start, You already changed the 3 major pieces in the system fpr, fps and injectors. We know the pump is capable of 5000 psi you saw that on a manual gauge .But without looking at the fpr% on a scanner we cant tell what its commanding.. There is a banjo bolt in the relief valve if you have a fitting to check that pressure idling it should read zero the whole time if you don't have a fitting it gets hot pretty quick bypassing fuel at that psi. The other thing a scanner would tell us is desired rpm vs actual when its reving we would be able to tell if its a throttle position sensor issue or possibly an ecm issue I doubt it is because we are getting a fuel code....Sorry for jumping all over the place with this but I hope some of the information is useful I know I can fix this I work on them daily its just a little tuff with no scanner... Ill be here with you until its running smooth as silk ....Let me know how you make out ill check in all day today mayb we can get it fixed before the day is done...Good luck 26sutphen

[mathura]

UPDATE

Mr 26sutphen

A million thanks to you.

I must admit that I have screwed up, you were 100% on target. I recharged the batteries and went through you list and Bingo the engine fired and ran perfectly.

It was indeed the injectors because that was the only component I replaced, all other sensors fuel pump actuator were put back that came with the engine.
I also learned how to flash the codes on the odometer as per your instructions, however I have check lamp still on but the engine is doing fine.

Fault code flashed on odometer is now reading P2509. What could this be and how do I get the fault lamp off.


Thanks again Bro

[26sutphen]

Power input signal intermittent, could be from weak batteries old code it should go out within 5 driving cycles if its fixed. If not check all battery connections and alternator charging state. You can always unhook both batteries and touch terminals together for 2 minutes and this should clean them. Glad I could help......

[mathura]

Power input signal intermittent, could be from weak batteries old code it should go out within 5 driving cycles if its fixed. If not check all battery connections and alternator charging state. You can always unhook both batteries and touch terminals together for 2 minutes and this should clean them. Glad I could help......

You are correct, I noticed the light is off today all seems to be well.

You are indeed an expert on this type of vehicles

Thanks to all those who contributed

[mathura]

This is a 2001 model DODGE 3500

After 30 seconds of starting engine the odometer displays no bus and engine RPM is de-rated to 2000 rpm.

I need some help how to flash fault code and what does the present fault indicates

Thanks

[oscarescodo]

The things I find is faulty is the vp44 injection pump. you can conect your insite with the triangle connector near to the engine dataplate,you have to use j1939 protocol to get in
Regards

[mathura]

Thanks

I did not know insite can read this ECM

[parezoo]

UPDATE

Mr 26sutphen

A million thanks to you.

I must admit that I have screwed up, you were 100% on target. I recharged the batteries and went through you list and Bingo the engine fired and ran perfectly.

It was indeed the injectors because that was the only component I replaced, all other sensors fuel pump actuator were put back that came with the engine.
I also learned how to flash the codes on the odometer as per your instructions, however I have check lamp still on but the engine is doing fine.

Fault code flashed on odometer is now reading P2509. What could this be and how do I get the fault lamp off.


Thanks again Bro

Hi Mathura,

Glad you got it right but what was the problem exactly?

[mathura]

Hi Mathura,

Glad you got it right but what was the problem exactly?

The problem was the injectors my friend but now I am working on another dodge 3500-2001 model. I have a de-rated condition with check lamp on and odometer displaying "no bus"

[26sutphen]

The things I find is faulty is the vp44 injection pump. you can conect your insite with the triangle connector near to the engine dataplate,you have to use j1939 protocol to get in
Regards

I agree the vp 44 pump is problematic but he has a no bus code , cummins programs the engine on the 2001 but it has to agree with the pcm from dodge to run properly. The data plug on the 01 is a flat 3 wire plug forward of the fuel filter or right behind the vp pump. It can be hidden but is there. Im not sure if insite will connect but if it does I just learned something new, and would like to grab that connector for future diag. MY feeling is a broken bus wire , a blown fuse, water in the connectors on the pcm (passenger firewall) or leaky cab lights will short the pcm through the information center in the overhead consol ( I had this happen to me).I have the ram manual for all the wiring if you need it. Good luck hope some of this helps. 26sutphen

[mathura]

I did some work on the 2001 dodge today checked all data bus wires from pcm to ecm and to datalink. all wires ok, all fuses good. No short to data wires.

What I noticed is the charging system is not charging when I checked the wiring diagram the pcm is supposed to send a power to the generator but I am getting no power to the generator. I checked for power going to the PCM and that is ok

Does this mean that the PCM has a problem.

And I forgot to mention the ABS, AIRBAG, BRAKE and CHECK ENGINE lights remains on while engine is running

Please let me know

Thanks

[oscarescodo]

Hi mathura guess you have to check your cps camshaft position sensor and check ecm ground ,this affect the charging regulator controled by ecm.

[26sutphen]

I would say pcm also , Its stinks you don't have a scanner to read codes. I bet you couldn't even connect to the ecm without a bus signal.... Try to pull the three plugs off the pcm and look for a green or oxidized pin maybe you will get lucky and find a bad pin. This is a problem on the 03/04 dodge and they had a recall adding a rubber gasket on the pcm plugs. Do you have a truck you could grab a pcm fom just to check ? regards

[mathura]

I would say pcm also , Its stinks you don't have a scanner to read codes. I bet you couldn't even connect to the ecm without a bus signal.... Try to pull the three plugs off the pcm and look for a green or oxidized pin maybe you will get lucky and find a bad pin. This is a problem on the 03/04 dodge and they had a recall adding a rubber gasket on the pcm plugs. Do you have a truck you could grab a pcm fom just to check ? regards

OK I did examine all three plugs of the PCM but found nothing unusual, however as you suggested I will call someone who has a scanner and see what codes are logged.
The guy only charges about $30 for the scan, I guess its worth going that way before I tell the customer PCM faulty

We only have a few dodge here so it will be difficult to locate a test piece

Will let you guys know how it goes

Thanks

[mathura]

the guy came and scanned today but was unable to connect to the system. No bus still displayed in the odometer.

What next should I tell customer the PCM is defective or do I need to do some more testing. I don't want to look bad because I have a reputation of never doing wrong diagnostics.
I am always very careful about what I do but I must say this is jumping out of my area with dodge.

[26sutphen]

If all the wiring checks out I would say faulty pcm, The no bus signal means dodge doesn't recognize cummins so to speak. Dodge has torque limiting and all kinds of goodies built into there module to protect there drivetrain. since your friend couldn't connect my guess is a bad pcm. I know how you feel about your reputation, I know the goal is always try to fix the truck for the least amount of money and make the customer happy. These trucks are computer controlled and computers could do funny things, I have seen the dealers simply do a reflash and correct a truck that's acting funny. I cant give you 100% on this one but i'm 85% its the pcm I hope this helps. Keep us posted