2010 Kia Sportage 2.0d no start

[Rustynutz]

Hi everyone,
I have a no start problem on a 2010 kia Sportage 2.0 diesel. The car has no fault codes 320bar on the common rail and 280 rpm cranking speed. The injector leak back is acceptable. The car will start and run without issue with easystart and start after running. If it is left any length of time it will not restart.
I have one injector upturned on the common rail connected up and all other injectors blanked off no diesel spray and no visible voltage trace whilst scoping the injector.
All fuses and relays test ok.
New fuel filter, lift pump pressure is within specifications.
No obvious temperature discrepancy between ambient and measured in real time data.
Not sure what to test next.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks Russ

[Liteace]

Hi everyone,

No obvious temperature discrepancy between ambient and measured in real time data.
Not sure what to test next.............................................. .................................................. ..........
Any help would be appreciated.


compression!

[Rustynutz]

Thankyou for the reply. There is no electrical signal at the injector when I scoped it no trace on the oscilloscope, there is fuel at the injector 300 Bar and good cranking speed. I have one injector removed from the cylinder and connected to the common rail with all other injectors disconnected from the common rail fuel supply but connected to the ECU. there is no diesel spray from the injector. Engine compression should not affect this test, the injector should be opening and delivering fuel.

[Meat-Head]

Welcome to dk the world best website

when non start diesel do not crank the shit as if dont start often shut down
crank 5 seconds. Key off repeat.

however on this car crank the shit for 30 seconds. Leave ignition on
plug in scan tool

[Rustynutz]

This will give P0336. This car has had 3 crankshaft sensors on for this fault by others the last one was a genuine kia part. I think that the fault is false generated by the PCM due to too long cranking time without starting.

[Meat-Head]

Too lazy to look but P0336 if was a pub quiz would write “incoherent crank signal”

ok, unplug that crank sensor plug one of the others in, repeat the experiment
to see if says “P0335 NO crankshaft signal” (pub quiz answer)

then plug in crank sensor unplug CAM sensor see if you got one of my favourite
fault codes of P0340 cam sensor.


how many miles? More than starship enterprise or less?
also oil is it like treacle or clean?

[Rustynutz]

Thanks for the reply.

Crankshaft position sensor A circuit range performance is the DTC I will have to see if the sensor is available it's a colleague's car I'm looking at it at lunchtimes.

Will unplug cam sensor and test.

The engine speed in serial data is always 280 rpm (I notice that the rail pressure drops after around 8 seconds of cranking which i assume is the ecu shutting off)

It's done about 105000 so less than enterprise.

oil looks normal not sticking to the dipstick.

[Rustynutz]

Afternoon, Have cranked with the cam sensor removed and no DTC is present using (Foxwell pro) although the MIL light is on, will have to check with laptop and Delphi tomorrow.

Thanks Russ

[Meat-Head]

So for experience and exponential reasons

remove the sealing o ring off the kia sensor and swing on the bolt as you tighten it up

if you scan scope it would be awesome.

ONLY IF SAFE, start engine unplug cam sensor see if carry on or dies

[Rustynutz]

Morning,

I scanned with Delphi and got the same code as previous P0336 Crankshaft position sensor A circuit range performance. Considering for some odd reason now that this is shared ?

I have checked voltage at pins of cam sensor plug and get expected result Pin 1 12 V Pin 2 5V Pin3 0 V.

I think will try a cam sensor and see what happens.

Still got all injectors off the rail and capped off with the exception of one.

[Rustynutz]

Just bench tested the sensor and it tests ok. pulling down when metal infront of it. So probably not that.

Going to check crank sensor wiring.

[Meat-Head]

Fan you scope at ecu?

[Rustynutz]

Your right it's easier to scope there rather than get to the crank sensor. I have the ECU loose in footwell when checking power.
Will be Monday now.
Thanks again for your help.

[Rustynutz]

I managed to back scope the ECU this lunchtime took a while to sort the back probes a bit of 0.8mm welding wire worked pretty good. The Cam sensor looks good, there is only 1V across the Cranksensor I think this is too low. I have attached the waveforms.

Thinking it could be a sensor distance issue so might have to remove and check the mounting face and the tooth depth if possible.

Might crank with the ECU disconnected to rule ECU input out first tho.

792021792022

[Rustynutz]

Double post don't know how to delete

[Meat-Head]

Think I mentioned for test removal of any rubber seals on crank sensor

[Rustynutz]

Thanks again,
I thought you meant cam sensor.
Do you think the voltage is too low ? Tdc peak is 1volt the rest of them are about 250 mVolts.
I'll have to try and get to the crank sensor and see.

[Meat-Head]

Try stalking DK member “Teuton” think that correct
he from Meccio, see if he got service manual for one

link to this post, so he’s not thinking your some random newbie

[Rustynutz]

792657792654

[Rustynutz]

So I have moved on this dinnertime.


I realised that I had scoped across the sensor last time.


I know that there is about 850 ohms across the crank sensor with the ECU disconnected measuring through the pins and that there are no shorts to the shield.


I notice on Picoscope website that there are two circuits for this type of sensor (magnetic)


One is a constant reference, non-floating, voltage to one side of the sensor and the sensor output signal on the other side


OR
a floating voltage, with mirrored output signals on each side of the sensor. This is the type that Kia utilise.


So I have scoped both sides of the sensor with reference to ground and find that only one of the outputs is there. The mirrored signal is not there. I have attached the scoped image.


My conclusion is that one of the ECU inputs is internally shorted.


Will remove ECU and open it up to check the input.

792658

[rideon]

Timing belt or timing chain on that engine?
How many (nautical)miles/km.light years on that engine ?
sounds like a stretched chain/almost right timing belt

[Rustynutz]

thanks for the post.
It's a timing belt and the motor has done about 105000 with a belt change at 65000. The strange thing about this car is that it runs without fault once starting fluid is used to start. no black smoke no unusual noise and no fault codes.

Im a newbie at scoping as much as here.
I checked the signal again and there are two. I've attached the scope. I think one of the backprobes wasnt connected well.
793424793425


The edc must be receiving the signal as also serial data is 280rpm cranking maybe just not how the EDC expect it for allowing injection.
I researched the code and found this in a megane technical manual with the EDC16 controller.

P0336 Crankshaft position (CKP) sensor -range/performance problem
cause Insecure sensor/rotor, air gap, wiring, CKPsensor
The 0. 25 volt AC voltage must be too low.
I think I need to check the sensor and wiring in the engine bay.

Meathead is right I think in earlier post.

I have found this link which suggests a .70 volt signal is required.

The signal amplitude must be 0.6 V at minimum for the ECU to recognize it. In the beginning of this measurement the amplitude is 0.7 V which is just enough. The signal amplitude varies with the engine speed: it is higher at higher rpms. The exact amplitude is not important because the ECU uses the flanks to determine the crankshaft position.


https://static.tiepie.com/gfx/Automotive/Sensors/Position/Shaft/Crank/Inductive/CrankshaftSensorInductiveMeasured.webp

If the timing was out would we expect
P0016 Crankshaft position/camshaft position, bank 1 sensor A - correlation ?

Thanks

[Meat-Head]

Meathead is right I think in earlier post.

Thanks

GRIN LIKE CHESSIRE CAT MODE:-

that’s a novelty.

did you remove t’ rubber seals off cranksensor?

can you starting fluid, then while running clear codes, see what happens?

I have to go out now, digging 3 tons of cat shit to get a hammer out my shed
but someone (sorry no idea) on here had a Vauxhall combo and the pickup inside
engine failed and they bolted used pickup to the crankshaft pulley

might be worth a read.

GRIN LIKE CHESSIRE CAT MODE STILL ACTIVE:-

[Rustynutz]

I think the process will go like this.
Remove ECU plug scope voltage across the crankshaft coil whilst bridging starter motor solenoid.
Remove plug from crankshaft sensor and scope across it. Compare voltage. Might be corroded plug connector.
Then look to remove the crankshaft sensor see if can see gap under mounting face. It's meant to be a bit of a crappy job as is on rear of engine under egr, removal of turbo inlet pipe and air filter to do from above and sensor meant to not be visible so might have to use endoscope.
If no gap remove and check for corrosion on mounting face. If no corrosion file sensor face down to decrease the gap.
Can see the tone wheel teeth on the scopes so that hasn't fallen off yet !

Enjoy the shovelling

[rideon]

Throw scope in the bottom drawer, not gonna help on this one
Remove crank and cam sensors and see if there is any metal fillings stuck on em
take a picture/upload on DK - just for fun
If those sensors are ruled out,try a push start, an if the indian starts then is time to pay a visit to local dealer with a VIN number
Who knows, maybe there is a TSB addressing that issue

[Meat-Head]

If those sensors are ruled out,try a push start,e

The only reason why I didn’t tell the guy to PUSH OFF, is because he seems decent enough to post
even on a Sunday

[rideon]

Me failed inglish again .
Did my homework, quick g00gle search "push off car"
On the first page there were some pictures (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/diet-fitness/bodybuilding-woman-bodybuilder-work-out-17087101)suggested by said search engine
Quite descriptive, that made it easy for me to understand the concept.




OT
The push off part was just to rule out low rpm starter...

[Rustynutz]

Found the fault on the vehicle.
The crankshaft sensor was loose although the securing bolt was tight. When the sensor was removed the o ring was not installed either. The securing bolt was too long it didn't look like a genuine bolt either as was not a flange head, this incorrect bolt was not allowing the sensor to clamp up to its mounting face. I replaced the securing bolt with a shorter one and tightened. I scoped the sensor and the signal is now 10 X's bigger than previous.
I fitted the ECU and diesel now sprays out of the injector.
I've started replacing the removed components.
Pretty sure it will start when everything is replaced.
I've attached the scope. It's very different from the first one.
794803

Basically somebody had dropped the securing bolt and replaced it with one far too long.

[Meat-Head]

Great always nice to hear solution to problem

ARE YOU LISTENING Z786, member updates thread

nice to hear fix, so proberbly your mate as its his car