kennedy assassination

[cantona7]

another one i am still in limbo about.
on one hand the yanks say it was oswald(so it must be true)
but then i have seen a few documentrys saying the angle of the shot etc that the bullet was fired from elsewhere and not where they say he was shot from.

if you look at the whole kennedy family they are a bunch of unlucky so and so's or is it as some people think a big conspiracy against a powerful and established part of american high society?????

[Jaffa]

Now if only they had a CSI Dallas. If Grissom had been on the job it would have been solved.

Its one of those where you either believe what is apparently the official view or whether you listen to the others who say about the angle of the shot and the grassy knoll. Someone will disagree with you whichever version you believe.

I have seen both sides stories and they are both bloody convincing so I have an open mind and tbh....I don't really care who shot him.

[Raven]

Well I think this was definitely a cover up in my honest opinion, basically we have the American government saying one thing and scientists saying something else and that for Oswald to have shot him from there considering the bullet wounds found on the president the bullet would have had to have gone backwards and forwards multiple times in mid flight which is obviously not phyisically possible or at the very least extremely unlikely into the 1 out of 10000 category but it's either possible or it isn't (the US government suggests one thing, physics alone and likelihood suggest another).....then we have an extremely similar situation with Martin Luther King's assassination and the link ? both he and Kennedy were committed to peace and change during a time of greed and war and so they had to be silenced....throw in the assassination of Robert Kennedy some years later and the apparent plane crash accident of John Kennedy's son (I forget his name...) and you add all this up and you have at minimum 5 or 6 extroardinary coincidences at best. Or you have an obvious (allbeit outlandish) cover up where the truth either won't be known at all or won't be made public until 2038 unless they have pushed it back even further and if so why ?

I don't buy any of it, cover up. The mere notion that 1 man acting alone could snipe the president from a lone window overlooking the square is ridiculous enough considering how well protected people in power are all things being equal.....which in this case it wasn't.....riding in the car open top, slowing down at the crucial headshot moment, Oswald being known to be an average shot at best and him firing 3 shots in 6 seconds with a crappy rifle at a moving target through thick foliage due to a tree obstructing his would be view ? nah if it wasn't a cover up then it has to be the biggest case of luck and coincidences dovetailing perfectly and realistically what are the odds ? Which is the most likely honestly ?

I know which side of the fence I'm on.

I just hope Obama doesn't end up the same way.....touch wood he won't.

[.: JaCkPoT :.]

When did this happen? Im a bit young

[Raven]

You seriously don't know when this happened ?! Wow, okay it was on 22nd November 1963 in Dallas, Texas.

If you haven't seen the movie JFK you should it raises alot of questions and food for thought and besides it is a really good film....it's about 3 hours long but unlike Titanic the whole film is riveting not just the last 30 minutes lol. It might be abit difficult to follow the first time you watch it although that might just have been me!

@ Jaffa, you might not care about who shot him I mean to be fair it was over 40 years ago now, but that doesn't change or erase what happened that day...to be fair the how and the who is not important, just a decoy for us to avoid asking the most important question, why ? That's the important part. The answer is the same as what it's always been about, power and money. The war creates more revenue than anything else and Kennedy was committed to change and peace except the people under him were committed to war, power and money.

Same principles stand nowadays aswell especially in the Bush administration, just look at Iraq war....they were supposedly after WMDs and they didn't find any at all, they lost the most recognisable and slow arse terrorist of our time and but shock and amazement they found a ton of oil in Iraq and sorted out Saddam while they were there and they found him in a random hole in the ground!

Try to add all this up and it doesn't make sense....if you use your own intuition and ask questions to yourself and ponder you realise that there's alot of smoke there....but we won't ever know for sure if there's a fire so we are stuck with basic guesstimation based on what we know to be an apparent fact vs the odds of probability in reality.

I mean I don't really care who shot Kennedy or the fact that Kennedy was shot since people invariably die anyways but then again it's not really about caring who shot Kennedy and how so much as it's about the reason why he was killed, and the fact that so it would seem that attitude is alive and well in this day and age also, that's the bigger picture and the one that you should care about, not that we can do anything about it.

If it was a cover up as I think it was then obviously we have a major problem looking at the big picture, or if not then obviously I've played too many video games and watched too many movies! lol

[efan2008]

well i say people destroy good people !!!!!! to keep evil alive like keeping dick world top leaders and shit! so they can have there way and no one can do nothing about it!! opion thats all

[firemouth]

I am, reasonably, open-minded on this. but atm, its swinging to the lone gun man scenario. The only real problem is, can you really see the US government being able to keep something like this a secret? my god a president dips a cigar in an intern and its all over the news:hmmmm:

[Raven]

Absolutely they can keep it a secret.....because A) it happened in 1963, and the longer it goes on the less important the subject becomes. B) they have all this fancy stuff now to promote their version of events shall we say (created especially to con the masses and confuse their understanding). And C) it's been their standard operating procedure to neither confirm, deny or discuss anything except to regurgitate their spin story every once in a blue moon. And then we have pretty much what we have now with this case and indeed most conspiracies the ones who believe there's more than meets the eye behind closed doors say one thing and the masses who believe what they are told have their input too and the resolution never comes, essentially we can talk about it until the cows come home and the more we do the more joe public is confused and ends up not wanting to know.....indeed alot of people are too frightened to face the reality of what the truth could well be they furiously dismiss conspiracy theorists and choose to believe the official version of what they are told by the government leaders and obviously that's exactly what the government wants....us to confuse each other so the point gets lost, making their story that much stronger by comparison of a smattering of conspiracy shouters.

Basically if you go on physics and the official story alone you know that Oswald couldn't have shot Kennedy from there under those circumstances...at the end of the day you know if you drop an apple you know that it will drop onto the floor and that it's physically impossible to go from side to side or whatever no matter what anyone says.

Oswald was known to be an average shot at best, for him to hit a moving target from that distance with a crappy rifle firing 3 shots in 6 seconds with one being the headshot (how Kennedy gets hit in the back of the head and his head doesn't move forward I don't know....point of impact, think about it.) For Oswald to hit Kennedy in the head from there he would have had to take into account wind direction and resistance, speed of vehicle and the meeting point of impact aswell as bullet drop or arc....basically the targeting crosshair wouldn't have even been aiming at Kennedy.....and yet all these things and calculations would have had to be absolutely spot on to even hit him from there and they are saying he did all these calculations on the fly and fired 3 shots with 3 reloads in 6 seconds one of them being the fatal headshot.....if you have ever fired a rifle at a target you know how long it takes to simply line up the shot and there's no way in this case he shot Kennedy from there in the time that he did....3 shots in 6 seconds including reload time after each shot and the 3rd shot was perfect....in reality the first shot would be the best and here the first shot misses Kennedy and the car completely.....and the fatal headshot clearly hits Kennedy in the front right and knocks his head backwards and to the left....point of impact.....Oswald supposedly shot him in the back of the head.....then there's the magic bullet theory how it zig zags all over the place....come on now it was an obvious cover up! And I don't believe in outlandish coincidences dovetailing perfectly at a specific moment, nor do I believe that the laws of physics can be broken or changed at will.....I do however believe that smart people are very coy and will tell you what you want to hear publicly but will have a very different face privately....I also believe that there's alot of not so smart people out there that blindly believe what they are told.

It's just the inquisitive ones who use their own thinking and draw up their own conclusions based off of probability versus fact are very much in the minority so unless the government admits any wrong doing the truth will never be common knowledge.....9/11 was also nothing more than a glorified demolition job and if it wasn't then why wasn't the fireman on duty that day talking to the press saying he heard what sounded like bombs going off in the WTC basement ever shown on the news ? After all it's relevant and he was there that day. Also to say them planes hit the top half of the towers they came down awfully surgically it was so clean it was almost like poetry in motion. I'm just amazed that the majority of people don't pick up on these little discrepancies and I'm even more amazed how quickly people are ready and willing to blindly believe what their government tells them.

[Raven]

I watched a documentary today which was made very recently (it was filmed in HD) and was shown on th history channel....basically it was a bunch of tests to debunk the conspiracy theories and to see how the shots from the book depository and the grassy knoll would have compared using full scale recreation and a dummy made to resemble a human head as closely as possible....and they concluded that the shot came from the book depository.....but....what they did was they used the same rifle as Oswald but used modern scopes....and as far as the grassy knoll shot goes they "demonstrated" how that shot despite being the easiest shot and with the most control over proceedings (therefore realistically the most likely shot but this isn't mentioned) would have literally blown Kennedy's head off and how the exit wound would have killed Jackie Kennedy too had that been the case....and then they compared all of this with the Zupruder film footage....however....they didn't actually show the Zupruder film head shot "out of respect" it was a digital recreation and not even a good one.....yet they did show Kennedy from the Zupruder footage where he was struck in the throat, suffering and holding his neck at the point of impact (front of the neck by the way and not the back of the neck, again this isn't explained at all....the body goes to the point of impact where the pain is automatically).....they also didn't show the footage or explain properly how or why his head went back and to the left from the headshot and apparently the dummies they made for the tests were unable to reflect this movement.....they also never explain why the secret service wiped the car clean at the hospital despite the fact that the limo was a crime scene.

FYI the program in question is available on newsgroups it's called JFK Inside The Target Car.

The headshot is the most crucial part of the whole thing and the bullet wound depicted here is totally inconsistent with where the bullet hits Kennedy in the Zupruder film.....and again how did his head go backwards and to the left if he wasn't hit from the front right....Kennedy was clearly struck on the corner of his head and their mock up suggested that he was taken at more side on conveniently implicating Jackie Kennedy as being in the line of fire if he was shot from grassy knoll when the Zupruder film clearly shows Kennedy being shot from the front right on the corner of his head and his head being jolted backwards and to the left due to point of impact.....and Jackie Kennedy is unharmed from any possible exit wound......the bullet clearly comes from front right you can see it clear as day where the bullet hits him and from which direction it was coming from when the bullet strikes.....the shot from the book depository based on what can see from the Zupruder film shows not only that the shot didn't come from behind but also shows to me that the shot from the depository to hit how it did just is not possible let alone very likely....just like the magic bullet fiasco.

I can buy the explanation of the 4 odd gunshots being or sounding like echoes due to the buildings around the area basically acting as an echo chamber....fair enough....but looking at the Zupruder live footage I can't buy that the shot came from the book depository as it clearly shows Kennedy being hit in the front of the head and not the back, the crucial part of the Zupruder film isn't shown on public tv because it shows the direct point of impact of where the bullet actually came from and it's clear to see it's certainly anything but from behind......

If anyone can give a clear and concise explanation as to how this shot from the depository is possible to hit the way it did in the Zupruder film then I will gladly hear it and entertain the possibility, however until then it's simple - a picture speaks a thousand words.

[jerrell]

Raven, I could not agree with you more, especially about the shot to the head. Unless everyone is not seeing this but he was hit at the front of the head.

[localarif]

i just think there are a lot of wackos out there, and you really cant legislate for nutbars.

[Raven]

Say what you want about nutbars they're all the same on the surface but you can't turn a Mars bar into a Snickers! lol

There are alot of whackos out there but none of them have the power to change the laws of physics....the CIA apparently do!

And if JFK and his brother and son aswell as Martin Luther King were killed by lonely, crazy people then why is it that all these people targeted and killed all posed a threat to the war mongers and money men in the government apparatus ? The link is these murdered leaders were committed to change and peace which made them dangerous to the people in the government who are committed to war and the money it generates.

Basically anyone with a truly open mind and half a brain in their heads about how the world really is behind closed doors will know that the Kennedy assassination was a coup de tat and was covered up. The others are either blind sheep that like to be led on and told what's what by their leaders or are the ones who over analyse things and lose the point....one look at the official story and then one look at the Zapruder film is all it should take to realise that something doesn't add up - watch the movie JFK which repeatedly shows the Zapruder footage and might well raise a few points you may be unaware of and remember one crucial fact of life - bullets are not boomerangs.

[hairyleaf]

Never forget the grassy knowl

[BalDEE]

i think Oswald did do the shooting but there was more than one shooter, will we ever know the truth.

[Raven]

Mate don't be so silly, okay if Oswald did the shooting (which he basically didn't though we may never receive official confirmation anymore) but if Oswald DID do the shooting then why do the CIA and company make a point of him acting alone and being the scapegoat ? it's obvious that whoever shot the president was not working alone and that there were other people there (spotters, radio people etc) it was a public execution that was planned and covered up by the shadow government that runs the world and all of this actually carried out by individuals in the CIA. The reason for all this was because Kennedy posed a serious threat to stopping the war.....this stuff goes much deeper than this and some of it you will either outright not believe because it's so outlandish, but look into it and especially go to youtube or google videos and type in dr steven greer and some of the things these people talk about really raises eyebrows....

They talk about how the shadow groups plan will be global terrorism, then third world concern, then asteroids, and finally alien invasion.....this was all said just before 9/11 by the way....and indeed it's a paraphrase of exactly what Werder Von Braughn (I think that's his name) said on his deathbed.....that they will eventually declare false alien invasion to scare the masses into this and that and weaponising space but the threat isn't true or of "alien" origin....it's a human effort as would the craft be...because think about it if the real alien beings were basically just like us, both socially and spiritually on the same level, then because of the way we have been acting towards them in the last 50 or 60 years this planet would be a smoking cinder in the middle of space somewhere by now and we wouldn't even be having this conversation or debate right now.....think about it.

I think it's funny how people go "oh we don't have anything that's capable of doing that!".....well....maybe not that you know of, for the most part everything that the public officially knows is basically nothing.

I'm going to steal a great phrase that I heard from the disclosure project meeting (which is covered on youtube I highly recommend watching it) but the phrase I'm going to say to you is.....absense of evidence does not mean evidence of absense.....you just think about that and remember 1 word; coverup.

[piopat]

i just wanted to comment on this topic i decided to do it here rather than open a new thread even tho i know this thread is about two years old now . .its a very interesting topic and i have done a lot of reading on this subject (books and online ) and looked at the video and pictures taken that day. just to start with lee oswald ,it is a known fact that he was an agent of some sort with the fbi and very likely the cia (so this should raise questions in poeples minds on its own ) and he can be clearly linked to people like clay shaw /jack ruby/dave ferry 3 people who were implicated in the jfk case . but lets talk about oswalds movements between 12 and 12.30 pm the day of the assassination .the warren commision says he was on the sixth floor hiding in the snipers nest and that he was most likely in their for the whole half an hour , so where was he ? ,a man called eddie piper (who worked with oswald ) said he spoke to him at 12.00 pm on the first floor (where oswald said he was eating his lunch) he was seen here at around the same time by two other employees harold norman and junior jarman . a man called bill shelly sees oswald near the phone on the first floor between 12.10 and 12.15 pm (bill shelly is never brought to testify in front of the warren commision ) at 12.15 carolyn arnold goes to the canteen on the first floor and sees oswald eating his lunch (she complained that her testimony that she gave to the warren commision was altered to say 12.25 ,there is a reason for this ) at 12.15 arnold rowland down on the street opposite the texas schoolbook depository looks up and he sees 2 men one in the window of the snipers nest (who he says is dark complected) and another man at the other end of the building . other people say they saw this man in the snipers nest and he wore a white shirt (when oswald is later confronted by officer marion baker ,bakers says oswald wore a long sleeve brown shirt ) at 12.20 bonny ray williams leaves the sixth floor where he had been eating his lunch (he said he never saw oswald )or anyone else . at 12.25 carolyn arnold again sees oswald near the front door on the first floor (where he said he was briefly )as do other employees ,so no one ever saw oswald on or near the sixth floor at any time between 12.00 and 12.30 pm .

now the warren commision says he was there but if you remember carolyn arnold and bill shelly both saw oswald at between 12.10 and 12.15 on the first floor eating his lunch (so he could not have been seen in the window of the snipers nest at 12.15 by arnold rowland (this was a problem for the warren commision ) so they altered her testiony to say she saw oswald at around 12.25 near the front door (this made it look as tho she saw oswald leaving the building after killing jfk ) this poses another problem as jfk was shot at about 12.30 . the commision had another problem the lift was stuck on the sixth floor and so had oswald been the shooter he would have had to use the stairway to make his escape (and no one saw oswald on this stairway at this time ) two other people can verify that oswald was not on the sixth floor or in the stairway making his escape . police officer marion baker and roy truly are these people ,baker having heard a shot dismounted his bike and ran into the building and met truly and they made their way up to the canteen where they saw and spoke to oswald .baker asked how long between the shots and him speaking to oswald (a maximum of 30 seconds he said ) truly backed this up . another important fact here is that jfks motorcade was due to pass the texas school book depository at around 12.15 ,this is important for the warren commision case (it was 15 minutes late ) oswald could have had no way of knowing this , this is why it also was so important that oswald be placed in the snipers nest at 12.15 and carolyn arnolds testimony would have scuppered that so they had to change it to say she only saw oswald at around 12.25 by the front door .

there is a lot more to talk about on this topic and i would love to hear peoples thoughts on it ,and i hope go into more of the details and facts of this case .

[johnboy1974]

i watched this program on national geographic and they had ballistics experts who examined the blood splatter they said it was impossible that the shot came from anywhere apart from the bood depository. furthermore they hired a world class firearms expert who went back to the sight in dallas and looked at all the possible places where you could have got a shot at the car. the grassy knowl was deemed to be impossible by him to get the shot in time and that was with modern weapons. i think the movie jfk has done a lot to get people thinking about a conspiracy but its basically rubbish.

[piopat]

unfortunately nat geo /discovery have created many programs based on the untruths and fiction that is the warren commission . on such program (inside the death car ) had people shooting at the target from the wrong heights and distances and the person shooting from the rear (supposedly oswald had no tree in his line of sight ) ,gary mack who can be seen in many of these nat geo/discovery programs was firmly on the conspiracy side and even worked with jack white in blowing up the mary mormon picture which exposed badgeman ,he only changed his stance when he got the job in the sixth floor museum.

hitler used to say the bigger the lie ,the more they will believe it (this was never more true than in this case ) the movie jfk is based on fact ,i have seen and heard the arguements about it and when the facts are checked the arguements fall flat . once such arguement was that the final scenes in the court where jim garrisson stood up and made his speech never happened (the arguement was that his part was very small in the trial and he did not speak at the end ) i have seen the official court transcripts and its nearly verbatim with the jfk movie.

the warren commission said first there were 3 shots fired and they accounted for the wounds made by the 3 shots , but then a man turned up who would scupper that ,he is james tague ,he had a wound on his face from a bullet that bounced off the kerb nearby and glanced off his cheek (he was lucky that he only got a nick on his cheek) so then they got in arlen spector who came up with the fiction now called the magic bullet theory ,his job was to explain how one bullet caused all these wounds in two people . he never explained how the bullet stayed in near pristine condition having caused all these wounds to jfk and connally ,and also people may not know that a large fragment of the bullet was left in connallys body and remained there for the rest of his life ,its clear the fragment was to big to have come from the magic near pristine bullet. the warren commission stance is one bullet missed the car,one bullet passed through jfks and connally ,and one caused the head wound ,only 3 spent cartridges were found not 4 so where is the cartridge from bullet 4 that hit tague.

the gun thats in the national archive (the rifle said to have been used by oswald to kill jfk) ,which can be viewed is not the gun that is seen in the so called backyard pictures or the gun seen in the famous picture where you see the police officer holding it up high after finding it. in fact 2 police officers made a report of finding a mauser and not a carcano (the gun thats in the archives is a mannlichercarcano) one of those officers is roger craig who refused to say it was not a mauser as did seymore weitzman, police chief will fritz and deputy sheriff luke mooney also agreed it was a 7.65mauser,and DA henry wade said in television interview that the gun was a mauser.

these are intelligent people and also well experienced with guns ,so before a tv show says it can prove that a bullet did this or somene fired from here and base there whole program on these points they need to do there homework, if there are serious doubts about how many bullets/shooters and from where and also even if the gun they have is the gun used and even if oswald fired at all (as nitrate tests proved he had not fired any weapons,and no witness has put him anywhere but on the firs floor) by making programs like this they only add to lie ,and maybe thats what they want . there are plenty of official documents and pictures and video out there that anyone can view if they want to, if you look at all the evidence with an open mind you will see the truth, the truth cant be killed like a human being can its just hidden, all you have to do is search for it.

[johnboy1974]

unfortunately nat geo /discovery have created many programs based on the untruths and fiction that is the warren commission . on such program (inside the death car ) had people shooting at the target from the wrong heights and distances and the person shooting from the rear (supposedly oswald had no tree in his line of sight ) ,gary mack who can be seen in many of these nat geo/discovery programs was firmly on the conspiracy side and even worked with jack white in blowing up the mary mormon picture which exposed badgeman ,he only changed his stance when he got the job in the sixth floor museum.

hitler used to say the bigger the lie ,the more they will believe it (this was never more true than in this case ) the movie jfk is based on fact ,i have seen and heard the arguements about it and when the facts are checked the arguements fall flat . once such arguement was that the final scenes in the court where jim garrisson stood up and made his speech never happened (the arguement was that his part was very small in the trial and he did not speak at the end ) i have seen the official court transcripts and its nearly verbatim with the jfk movie.

the warren commission said first there were 3 shots fired and they accounted for the wounds made by the 3 shots , but then a man turned up who would scupper that ,he is james tague ,he had a wound on his face from a bullet that bounced off the kerb nearby and glanced off his cheek (he was lucky that he only got a nick on his cheek) so then they got in arlen spector who came up with the fiction now called the magic bullet theory ,his job was to explain how one bullet caused all these wounds in two people . he never explained how the bullet stayed in near pristine condition having caused all these wounds to jfk and connally ,and also people may not know that a large fragment of the bullet was left in connallys body and remained there for the rest of his life ,its clear the fragment was to big to have come from the magic near pristine bullet. the warren commission stance is one bullet missed the car,one bullet passed through jfks and connally ,and one caused the head wound ,only 3 spent cartridges were found not 4 so where is the cartridge from bullet 4 that hit tague.

the gun thats in the national archive (the rifle said to have been used by oswald to kill jfk) ,which can be viewed is not the gun that is seen in the so called backyard pictures or the gun seen in the famous picture where you see the police officer holding it up high after finding it. in fact 2 police officers made a report of finding a mauser and not a carcano (the gun thats in the archives is a mannlichercarcano) one of those officers is roger craig who refused to say it was not a mauser as did seymore weitzman, police chief will fritz and deputy sheriff luke mooney also agreed it was a 7.65mauser,and DA henry wade said in television interview that the gun was a mauser.

these are intelligent people and also well experienced with guns ,so before a tv show says it can prove that a bullet did this or somene fired from here and base there whole program on these points they need to do there homework, if there are serious doubts about how many bullets/shooters and from where and also even if the gun they have is the gun used and even if oswald fired at all (as nitrate tests proved he had not fired any weapons,and no witness has put him anywhere but on the firs floor) by making programs like this they only add to lie ,and maybe thats what they want . there are plenty of official documents and pictures and video out there that anyone can view if they want to, if you look at all the evidence with an open mind you will see the truth, the truth cant be killed like a human being can its just hidden, all you have to do is search for it.


thanx for thorough and well presented reply but i just think its too big a conspiracy to cover up. ive seen enough evidence via tv shows etc to make my mind up i dont think there is a conspiracy.

[z786]

here listen 2 this

YouTube - The speech that got John F. Kennedy Killed

IMPROVED LINK, FULL SPEECH

YouTube- JFK told us the TRUTH.


EVEN MORE DETAIL

YouTube- The Day Illuminati Revealed Itself - JFK _part 1

[piopat]

johnboy thanks for your input and i appreciate it a lot ,but as i say if peoples thinking is based on what they see on a tv show (in effect what they are told and not what they know ) rather than seeking out the true facts that are there for anyone to see if they want to, its akin to brain washing . the russians used to put ads on tv and tv shows anti american (the americans called it propaganda ) the americans and the british said sadam had weapons of mass destruction (where are they ) sadam is now dead and cant argue his case . by the way sadam called bush senior when he was president and told him he was invading kuwait ,bush senior said fine mate (check it out its fact ) so on what basis did he start the war ,and why did he leave ,and why go and leave sadam no worse off . osama bin ladens dad is a good friend of bush senior and also of gw ,in fact they organised passports for the bin laden family to leave the us after 911 (check it out) thats an excellent link by the way z786 .

here are a few links http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/morningstar5.htm ,check out aquilla clemmons and domingo benavides (the two nearest people to the killing of officer jd tippit ,the second killing oswald was blamed for) benavides was brought to a police line up an stead fastly refused to point oswald out as the killer (having been only feet away ) and he was never called by the warren commission ,(i wonder why) ,aquilla clemmons saw two men shoot tippit and run off in different directions (she was never called by the warren commission) again i wonder why . here is another link http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/postphotos.html

the warren commision had a way of thinking and working ,that is that oswald was the soul shooter and if any witness contradicted that they were crazy/blatant liars/looking for attention ,and if their evidence couldnt be discredited discredit the person giving it . one case in fact is jean hill who was within feet of jfk when he was shot in the head (she said i heard 4 to 6 shots ) they discredited her by saying she was having an affair (how does this make what she said a lie ) in the movie jfk kevin costner who played jim garisson said in the movie ( i always wonder in court why it is that a prostitute has to have bad eyesight ) he means when they are witness to a crime . its normal for a case to go to court and all witnesses and evididence gone through and a person found guilty or not as the case may be (inocencent till proven guilty ),this never happened with oswald it seems guilty till proven inoccent .

and no one has expressed an oppinion that they can back up with any facts or intelligent arguements ,i saw it on tv so it must be true is not an intelligent arguenent of facts (and i mean no offence by that ) i just would like people to offer what they see as proof of guilt and offer proof and an intelligent expanation as to why they think its proof of guilt and not based on a tv show but on an investigation of all available information..

[piopat]

Evidence of Revision (5 of 5):RFK assassination, MK ULTRA + Jonestown massacre. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8273110340777778333&hl=en#)
this is an excellent documentary its called evidence of revision ,its in about 6 parts .much much better than inside the target car etc.
Other Garrison (http://www.jfkmontreal.com/other_garrison.htm)
this makes for very interesting reading.
http://www.videosurf.com/videos/Executive+Action+
this is a link to a great movie called executive action
JFK Assassination Details (http://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkassassination.shtml)
you can find lots of info and links here
JFK First Witness Accounts With The Zapruder Film Faking and Other Photo's, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread191783/pg1)
this is a link where people can view the first hand witness statments ,also it shows faked pictures including the famous zapruder film.

[johnboy1974]

Evidence of Revision (5 of 5):RFK assassination, MK ULTRA + Jonestown massacre. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8273110340777778333&hl=en#)
this is an excellent documentary its called evidence of revision ,its in about 6 parts .much much better than inside the target car etc.
Other Garrison (http://www.jfkmontreal.com/other_garrison.htm)
this makes for very interesting reading.
YouTube- Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vaovhwlkeu)
this is a link to a great movie called executive action
JFK Assassination Details (http://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkassassination.shtml)
you can find lots of info and links here
JFK First Witness Accounts With The Zapruder Film Faking and Other Photo's, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread191783/pg1)
this is a link where people can view the first hand witness statments ,also it shows faked pictures including the famous zapruder film.
piopat i have enjoyed your information you have put forward. if there is a conspiracy then why should we listen to the warren commission was that not government appointed.

[piopat]

there are actually 2 official government versions of what happened (the warren commission ) which said lee oswald was the lone killer ,(the house select commitee on assassinations ) which said there was a probable conspiracy .does the government always tell us the truth , tony blair and george bush told the world saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction (these have never been found ,could it be they never existed at all) it doesnt take einstein to work out why they would lie , there is a simillar issue with afghanistan .earl warren said lee oswald and jack ruby never met have a look at this CTKA Reviews Page (http://www.ctka.net/2010/perry.html) ,
http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/herman/herman16.html
this link is to dow 9/11 rather than jfk ,its called in plane sight
9/11 In Plane Site - Director's Cut (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2361717427531377078#)
hope to talk to you more on this.

[piopat]

so above we have a list of witnesses (including a policeman)who saw oswald at all times only on the first floor between 12.00pm and 12.30pm ,no one has ever said they saw oswald on or near the sixth floor at this time. so what happened next ,well oswald walked out the front door and in to the chaos outside(as did many employees ,ill come back to this) the warren commission said oswald boarded a bus ,this is based on testimony of one witness only mary bledsoe (look at the link above ctka reviews page ) .no other passengers or the driver of the bus could place oswald on that bus only mary bledsoe ,(what was her testimony) she said i did not look at him but i saw him out of the corner of my eye (now look at the link and see how she describes oswalds face looking like murder) for someone who didnt look she saw a lot ,yet no other passenger saw this .its obvious they wanted oswald to appear crazed with murder in mind , and they also had to ensure that oswald was heading in the direction of tippit and within the very tight time scale ,(this is why they used the veru dubious mary bledsoe) in a court trial other witnesses would have been brought forward to easily discredit her but of course the warren commission knew oswald was dead and there would be no trial and no cross examination of their witness.

now contrast that to this, oswald got in to a taxi (having calmly and politely stepped aside and allowing an old lady to take the first taxi ) he then got in to the second taxi driven by william whaley . whaley said (he you could have picked oswald from the line up without identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policemen ) oswald complained that he was put in a line up with teens and so of course as a 23 year old man would immediately be picked out . the also put him in a line up with hispanics and african americans where he was the sole white man so again of course he could not fail to picked out . whaley of course picked oswald as the passenger that he had in his car .so oswald returned home to his rooming house shortly before 1 pm (it must be remembered that traffic was chaotic that afernoon which is why his journey took so long) we can surmise that the time would have been nearer to 12.55 from the statement of earlene roberts ,she said he changed his jacket and was in the rooming house for a few minutes (the warren commission added here that he pocketed a revolver ,this was not seen by mrs roberts ) at the same time a police car pulled up outside and honked its horn twice (mrs roberts said the number on the car lookeed to be a 1 and a 0 or the number 10 ,tippits patrol car was number 10 ) she said also that there were 2 policemen in the car . oswald left very shortly after (about 1.00 pm )and was seen by mrs roberts standing at the bus stop for a few minutes (untill around 1.04) before walking off in the opposite direction to where tippit would be shot a few minutes later .

the warren commission must have decided she was wrong/lying because they disregarded her statment and said oswald must have turned around and walked in the direction of tippit , where tippit on patrol stumbled upon lee oswald and oswald shot him ,its important to note that mrs roberts seen tippits car with the number 10 on the car door and 2 cops were in it (another more important reason for her testimony to be disregarded ) if tippit was with a second cop in his car when he was shot where is the second cop ,its quite clear why her statement was disregarded .

lets just say oswald did walk the mile or so and shoot tippit ,the first time quoted as the time of the killing of tippit was 1.00 pm (oswald was standing at the bus stop over a mile away so could not have been the killer if this time is correct ) it takes about 12 minutes to walk to where tippit was killed (if you walk the shortest possible route) a witness to the shooting domingo benavides tried to call the police from tippits radio after the shooting ,but he did not know how to operate it ) after a few minutes an other witness came to the car and made the call on the police radio ,the time of this call is officialy logged at 12.16 pm (yet officer tippit says it was 1.06 pm). it should be noted that benavides hid in his truck for some minutes during the shooting (as did the other witnesses) before trying to make this call and spent another few minutes trying to work the police radio before being helped by mr bowley , a minimal of 5 minutes elapsed between the shooting and the radio call this puts the time of the shooting as early as 1.10 pm (if oswald was walking he could not have been there for atleast another few minutes . another witness put the time of shooting at 1.07 pm and another at around 1.10 pm and officer roger craig said he heard the call for help on his police radio and noted it at 1.06 pm (could oswald have been there ?) he would have to have run over a mile in 2 minutes which is a physical impossibility.

lets say he ran how fast could he have got there ,it would take a top class athlete nearly 4 minutes to run that distance ,i was a runner my self so i know roughly how long it would take the average 23 year old man to run that distance (we were told of oswalds supposed prowess as a shooter but i have seen nothing to state he was especially fit) it would have taken him atleast 8 minutes maybe 10 to run this distance runnng at full stretch. he would have been quite tired and out of breath having reached the murder scene . but witness say the killer was strolling along calmy and even stopped to speak to tippit (no witness saw oswald running or walking to the crime scene ) one such witness described the killer as being white about 18 years old with black hair and red complexion wearing tan shoes and tan jacket and dark trousers (clearly not lee oswald )this witness was helen markham she gave a few other very different descriptions of the same man and was unrelliable as a witness at best. yet she was brought to the warren commission , not aquilla clemmons a lady whose house was across the street and who saw 2 men do the shooting and run off in different directions (2 killers wouldnt do as that would mean conspiracy) they disregarded domingo benavides statement also as the time scale he gives would not allow the warren commission to put oswald at the scene of the killing .
a description of oswald was put out at between 12.40 and 12.45 pm (ill talk about who gave the description and the timing involved in another post) one reason for giving out this description is that the police supposedly asked the building manager roy truly what employees are missing and he supposedly said only lee oswald was missing hence his description was given out. this is not the case as many employees left the building ,but this is important also as it is the lie that allowed them to say this was the reason for putting out a description of oswald , this description of oswald was not only put out verbally but also a police drawing of oswald was put out all between 12.40 and 12.45 ,thats very quick work indeed wouldnt you say . i hope to come back to this in my next post . i have just been trying to lay out a time scale of the events and detail the witnesses to give people a clearer picture ,then you will also be clearer on why the tv companies only put out the fiction like inside the target car and not some of the documentaries i have listed above.

[piopat]

so oswald let the texas school book depository just after 12.30 pm , it is firmly established that at 12.45 a description of him was given out (it was given by a man called howard brennan) brennan said he gave his description to a secret agent sorrels , this gave the commission another headache . sorrels travelled to parkland hospital with jfk and had no time to speak to anyone in the immediate aftermath of the shooting ,sorrels estimated that it took him about 25 minites to return to elm street. brennan claimed however that he spoke to sorrels within a few minutes of the shooting (the commission never reconciled this discrepency ,i wonder why ) it should be noted that when brennan came face to face with lee oswald in a line up he did not make a positive identification ,brennan would change his mind on what and who he saw quite a few times. its also interesting to add that (if they had this great witness who provided the description that got oswald picked up) why then did police chief jessy curry say on the morning of the 24 november (2 days after the killings) when asked if he had an eye witness who saw someone shoot the president ,he said ,no sir we do not.

it seems who ever brennan saw was not oswald as he could not identify him ,who ever he spoke to was not sorrels (so who was impersonating sorrels) and if brennan could not identify oswald in a line up (and of course he must have seen his face on tv and in the papers ) how could he have given such an accurate description .

lets talk about other witnesses ,s m holland was standing on the railway overpass (the grassy knoll was to his left ,and the book depository was in front of him ,james tague was down below him to his right under the overpass) he saw a puff of smoke come from the badgeman area of the grassy knoll (it seems his evidence was most unwelcome to the warren commission,it was ignored except that his evidence of hearing 4 shots was changed to 3

) jean hill and mary mooremon were two of the nearest people to jfk when he was shot (having first joined a large number of people in a chase up the grassy knoll to find the shooter,she was then dragged by so called secret service agents to a nearby
building) her camera was taken never to be returned or seen again and when she was asked how many shots she heard she said 4 to 6 shots ,to use jeans own words the agents told her that (she had heard but 3 shots ,thats all were willing to say) so within minutes of the shooting they were telling witnesses say 3 shots.

richard randolf car saw a man in a tan jacket on the sixth floor ,and also saw the same man leave in a hurry after the shooting (he was told by the fbi if you didnt see oswald you didnt witness it) aquilla clemmons who seen 2 men shoot tippit and refused to pick oswald out of a line up was never brought to the warren commision ,there were many people only feet away from jfk and could say how many shots they heard and what they saw ,many were never called to the warren commision and quite a few were accused of everything from outright lying and attention seeking to they must have been mistaken and even being crazy or having a mental problem . have a look at the link above containing witness first hand accounts , lee bowers worked in the railway yard behind the picket fence and he said something out of the ordinary had happened there (a flash of light a puff of smoke ) the warren commission councel cut him off here ,gordon arnold claimed he was standing on the grassy knoll at the time of the shooting and that shots were fired from behind him and that a man in a uniform with a gun took his film from his camera (take a look at badgeman revealed above ) he also said that on hearing the shots he dived to the ground a witness to that was in the car behind jfk senator ralph yarborough ,he said he saw a man jump to the ground , and to use his own words (it was like an old time football tackle ) julia ann mercer said she was driving on elm street and was in the lane nearest the knoll when she was blocked by a pickup truck that was half on the road and half on the kerb ,she gave a very detailed description of both men and even identified ruby as the truck driver (she complained an affidavid where she claimed that she identifird ruby was changed to (she could not identify anyone from the photos) its curious also that even tho both the sheriffs office and the fbi were informed of mercers statement and who she identified no full scale scale investigation was launched.

the point of my posts here are only to show that the events that occured on the afternoon of 22 november 1963 are either not accounted or are inaccurately accounted for and documents and photos have been altered and many witnesses who should have been called to give evidence were not or there testimony was changed ,if this case were brought to a court in 1963 and lee oswald was given a fair trial he would have been exonerated . i hope at the very least i have helped peoples understanding of the events that occured ,of course a person has a right to believe what they want and to hold there own opinions and i would always say to people to do their own thinking and investigating . and i would hope that if a person has access to all the full true facts of the case and are unbiased that they would come to the correct conclusion of what happened . no mystery is closed to an open mind .

what kind of gun was found in the texas school book depository? have a look below.
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_issue/guns_dp.html
have a look at the multitude of info and links in the link below
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/gil_jesus_page.htm
have a look at the different rifles
http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html

[johnboy1974]

johnboy thanks for your input and i appreciate it a lot ,but as i say if peoples thinking is based on what they see on a tv show (in effect what they are told and not what they know ) rather than seeking out the true facts that are there for anyone to see if they want to, its akin to brain washing . the russians used to put ads on tv and tv shows anti american (the americans called it propaganda ) the americans and the british said sadam had weapons of mass destruction (where are they ) sadam is now dead and cant argue his case . by the way sadam called bush senior when he was president and told him he was invading kuwait ,bush senior said fine mate (check it out its fact ) so on what basis did he start the war ,and why did he leave ,and why go and leave sadam no worse off . osama bin ladens dad is a good friend of bush senior and also of gw ,in fact they organised passports for the bin laden family to leave the us after 911 (check it out) thats an excellent link by the way z786 .

here are a few links http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/morningstar5.htm ,check out aquilla clemmons and domingo benavides (the two nearest people to the killing of officer jd tippit ,the second killing oswald was blamed for) benavides was brought to a police line up an stead fastly refused to point oswald out as the killer (having been only feet away ) and he was never called by the warren commission ,(i wonder why) ,aquilla clemmons saw two men shoot tippit and run off in different directions (she was never called by the warren commission) again i wonder why . here is another link http://www.the7thfire.com/jfk/man_in_the_doorway.htm

the warren commision had a way of thinking and working ,that is that oswald was the soul shooter and if any witness contradicted that they were crazy/blatant liars/looking for attention ,and if their evidence couldnt be discredited discredit the person giving it . one case in fact is jean hill who was within feet of jfk when he was shot in the head (she said i heard 4 to 6 shots ) they discredited her by saying she was having an affair (how does this make what she said a lie ) in the movie jfk kevin costner who played jim garisson said in the movie ( i always wonder in court why it is that a prostitute has to have bad eyesight ) he means when they are witness to a crime . its normal for a case to go to court and all witnesses and evididence gone through and a person found guilty or not as the case may be (inocencent till proven guilty ),this never happened with oswald it seems guilty till proven inoccent .

and no one has expressed an oppinion that they can back up with any facts or intelligent arguements ,i saw it on tv so it must be true is not an intelligent arguenent of facts (and i mean no offence by that ) i just would like people to offer what they see as proof of guilt and offer proof and an intelligent expanation as to why they think its proof of guilt and not based on a tv show but on an investigation of all available information..

you say i should back up my facts with evidence and not tv shows but where do you get your facts from. bush said fine when sadam phoned him to say he was invading kuwait. how do you know this yes its because you read it somewhere or watched it somewhere exactly the same as myself.

[piopat]

im not in anyway arguing with you mate ,i gave you some links to very good documentaries that you wont see on any major tv network ,my point was that these tv channels will only show programs that go along with the official story .when i said (no one has expressed an opinion that they can back up with facts and intelligent arguements) i meant the people who appear on these shows .

these people who call them selves investigative journalists refuse to sit down on national tv and debate the evidence , surely an investigative journalists job is to look in to all the evidence/facts and speak to all witnesses and then give an unbiased report ,how can they call them selves investigative journalists if they start with this man is guilty and only look for so called evidence that shows that ,and ignore evidence that would show innocence.

when i said (i saw it on tv so it must be true ) this was an in general thing ,meaning a lot of people say stuff like that .

there are many documents available through the freedom of information act (that wont be shown on tv ) that any one can see . the facts i gave above are what i have learned from reading many many of these documents , and reading witness reports etc .anybody can get the witness reports and check them against the versions in the warren commission volumes , and anyone can view any document available under the freedom of information act . as i said above people should do their own thinking and investigating and come to their own conclusion. i dont/wont and would never say believe me over everyone else ,i always only say look for your self and make up your own mind .

above i gave the warren commision official versions of what they said happened and intertwined it with documented witness statements and tried to give an honest and true assessment of the evidence that as i say is available to all.
i in know way meant any offence johnboy and if i unintentionaly gave any i do appolagise .

[johnboy1974]

im not in anyway arguing with you mate ,i gave you some links to very good documentaries that you wont see on any major tv network ,my point was that these tv channels will only show programs that go along with the official story .when i said (no one has expressed an opinion that they can back up with facts and intelligent arguements) i meant the people who appear on these shows .

these people who call them selves investigative journalists refuse to sit down on national tv and debate the evidence , surely an investigative journalists job is to look in to all the evidence/facts and speak to all witnesses and then give an unbiased report ,how can they call them selves investigative journalists if they start with this man is guilty and only look for so called evidence that shows that ,and ignore evidence that would show innocence.

when i said (i saw it on tv so it must be true ) this was an in general thing ,meaning a lot of people say stuff like that .

there are many documents available through the freedom of information act (that wont be shown on tv ) that any one can see . the facts i gave above are what i have learned from reading many many of these documents , and reading witness reports etc .anybody can get the witness reports and check them against the versions in the warren commission volumes , and anyone can view any document available under the freedom of information act . as i said above people should do their own thinking and investigating and come to their own conclusion. i dont/wont and would never say believe me over everyone else ,i always only say look for your self and make up your own mind .

above i gave the warren commision official versions of what they said happened and intertwined it with documented witness statements and tried to give an honest and true assessment of the evidence that as i say is available to all.
i in know way meant any offence johnboy and if i unintentionaly gave any i do appolagise .


thanks mate all i am saying is that there is enough evidence out there from both sides for everyone to make up their own minds on this matter i have enjoyed your posts and all the info and links you have provided- it even made me download jfk direcrers cut and watch it over again, i enjoyed it but as i already said after 40 years its too big a conspiracy to cover up mate.

[piopat]

i too want everyone to make up their own minds (but based on the full facts) as i say everyone has their own mind and i hope will do their own thinking ,and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. but let us not forget that not just a president has died but a man also and husband and a father ,and he has been killed in full view as was lee oswald ,who also was a father of 2 little girls ,and others have died tho their deaths may be debateable and they to were fathers /hubands /brothers /sons. and be it 4 weeks/4months or 40 years these people were murdered and they still have daughters and sons and grandchildren alive who seek the truth(who deserve the truth not lies ) .god forbid it was someone in our family that was blamed wrongly ,we of course would also seek the truth to clear our family members name .
YouTube- MARGUERITE OSWALD READS LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S LETTERS FROM RUSSIA (PART 1)
this is lee oswalds mother reading letters from lee
YouTube- JFK assassination Lee Harvey Oswald daughter June Oswald interview
lee oswalds daughter june and below lees daughter rachel and marina oswald
YouTube- JFK assassination Lee Harvey Oswald daughter Rachel Oswald Porter Interview
YouTube- Lee Harvey Oswald's Wife Speaks
and as yet i havent heard or been shown any proof and evidence backing this up by anyone (willing to argue their case and show proof as to to lee oswalds guilt) ,yet people still say he is gulty.
all it takes for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing (edmund burke).

[johnboy1974]

dont you think that after all these years someone would have spoken up about it after all there must have been many people involved if there was a plot to kill the president. remember they couldnt even keep a lid on clinton and lewinsky, whats chances of keeping it quiet when they murder the president. someone would have spoken by now even if it was only a deathbed confession. there was a section in the movie jfk where they show oswalds wife admitting he was a good husband but that she believed he was capable of killing the president.

[piopat]

it is true that oswalds wife did say at the time that she thought he was capable of killing ,but it has to be remembered that this woman had little or no english and was in a foreign country where her husband had been accused of two terrible crimes ,she was in fear of her life and also deportation .also she was in the full control of the fbi at all times after the assassination ,she has since retracted her statement and she has said that basicly she was coached in what to say to the press and the warren commision .she went along with it in fear of deportation back to russia.

one such statement was that she took the backyard photo (the famous one with lee holding the rifle) it must be stressed that she said she took one photo only ,but there would end up being three. (this is important ,as she had no knowledge of the other two photos) so who took the other two photos. the first photo was found by the police at the time of the assassination ,one was found in the possesion of george de mohrenchildts in the 70s and there is also a third photo .it seems clear that at the time the fbi had no knowledge of other photos ,so they coached marina to say she took the photo ,the other two turning up years later put the tuth to the lie. in marinas own words (i tried to prove to everyone i was worthy of living in my new country ,i bent over backward to please people ) clearly she did what ever she felt she needed to do stay in the country.

its a lot easier to keep a secret if most of the people involved are dead (dead men tell no tales) and quite a few people who had important things to say are no longer around to say these things .

"Disappearing Witnesses: what does "justice" mean w.r.t. assassination?", by Penn Jones Jr. (http://scribblguy.50megs.com/DW.htm)

the house select committe on assassinations in the 70s accepted accoustical evidence of more than three shots and also accepted that atleast one shot came from the grassy knoll area ,they also came to the conclussion that there was a conspiracy ,but they chose to word it as a probable conspiracy.

at the end of the day a person will believe what they want to believe or what they were led to belive .as they say you can bring a horse to water but you cant make him drink , the truth is out there all people have to do is look for it ,or not as the case may be.


John F. Kennedy Assassination Homepage :: Convenient Deaths (http://www.jfk-assassination.de/articles/deaths.php)

CTKA Reviews Page (http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd.html)
CTKA Reviews Page (http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd2.html)
CTKA Reviews Page (http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd3.html)

[johnboy1974]

im very sure that if every person who was involved in the conspiracy was killed then we would definitly have heard about that before now.

[piopat]

we have been hearing about the death threaths and the deaths of witnesses to the assassination and the deaths of people like clay shaw/dave ferrie/guy bannister (who would have had first hand knowledge ) for over 40 years .so its hardly just now that we are hearing about it.

[BRASS EAGLE]

Naw man ..Dig up Tagart he would solve it,,THERES BEEN A MURDER

[piopat]

look below and you will see a second rifle in the texas school book depository ,47 years later we are still being told there was one rifle and oswald owns it and fired it at jfk. i have two questions who fired the second rifle (couldnt be oswald ) and wouldnt two rifles and two shooters better explain all the wounds on jfk and connally. look for your self.
YouTube - The depository revisited - Alyea#2

the man in the video is roger craig here is a bit more info about him
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcraigR.htm

count the bullets
Count the Bullets: Blow Away All Arguments | Strike-The-Root: A Journal Of Liberty (http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/herman/herman16.html)

[piopat]

i just thought i would bump this thread to see if anyone has any thoughts on the jfk assassination ,and ive added a bit to it about marina and the backyard photos and the rifle seen in it .

the backyard photographs are photographs purportedly taken by marina oswald of lee oswald holding a rifle .

there are a few problems with the photographs so ill talk about a few of those problems . marina oswald initialy claimed she had taken only one photograph but atleast two more would be found and she then changed that story and claimed she took all the photographs .

to add to that when questioned about the camera marina didnt know how to operate the camera in that she didnt know if one looked down into a view finder or raised the camera up to their eye

a piece of marinas hsca testimony
Q. This camera, do you recall whether to take pictures with this camera, you would look down into the viewfinder or
whether you would hold the camera up to your eye and look straight ahead?
A. I just recall I think it is straight.
Q. You would put the camera up by your eye?
A. Yes

she was wrong ,the camera had a view finder which you looked down in to ,here is a picture of the same model of camera marina supposedly used.
http://www.copweb.be/images/ce750-m6.jpg

to add to her not knowing which end of the camera to look into she didnt know what colour the camera was .

a piece from marinas hsca testimony
Q. Do you remember what color the camera was?
A. I think it was black.
Q. Do you remember anything else about it?
A. Not the name; no. But again, since I am not expert with the camera, that is what I remember, I think?

she was wrong about the colour of the camera ,oswalds camera was silver ,here is a picture of the real oswald camera.
http://www.copweb.be/images/Real620.jpg

another problem with her testimony is that she claimed she had her back to the staircase (the staircase is clearly seen in the backyard photographs ) meaning the staircase was behind her which would mean the staircase could not appear in any of the photographs. lets have a look at one of the backyard photographs
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjlAZObHdo8Cw4CupPV0H3zbLyGfIBU 3IXlb_Yg1lufI6EgApF

now its easy for anyone to see that the staircase is quite clearly in front and to the left of the photographer in all 3 photographs ,the photographer did not have their back to the staircase ,so it is my opinion based on the photographs in evidence and marinas own testimony that she did not take these photographs .if marina did indeed take photographs (with her back to the stairs )it was a different set of photos and she used a completely different camera ,however its difficult to believe she took any photographs of oswald . oswald during interrogation said the photos were fake and that his head was superimposed on someone elses body ,and that he would prove this in court but of course he would not live to see the inside of a court house .

here is an interesting picture of the rifle that resides in the national archives (top) and the rifle in the backyard photographs (bottom).
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff394/dhjosephs/Rifle-BYversusNARA.jpg

[racin-snake]

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/evidence-of-revision/

this is a great piece of work
shows a much deeper look at the goings on and the evidence not provided by the warren commission too
subjects covered are vast and quite interesting
well worth the watch

[piopat]

yes they are excelent documentaries i highly recommend them ,people will learn little from the discovery channel documentaries such as jfk inside the target car as they dont really examine/discuss evidence other than the oswald did it alone scenario .

[piopat]

roger craig always maintained the rifle found in the texas school book depository was a mauser and that it was found at 1.06 pm, and not 1.16pm as the warren commision claimed . he gave the time of 1.06 because an officer came from the command center up to the sixth floor and told will fritz that an officer had been shot in the oak cliff area (this was j d tippit) and craig noted the time as 1.06 pm and he said the rifle was found at this time .

is there any evidence that supports a time of 1.06 for the finding of a rifle ?(i say a rifle because there may have been 2 if craig is correct ) there is indeed evidence that a rifle was found at about 1.06 pm .luke mooney is the man who found the snipers nest which contained the spent shells ,he found the snipers nest at 1.00pm or maybe just before it ,

Mr. Ball. About what time of day was this?Mr. Mooney. Well, it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1 o'clock.Mr. Ball. Did you look at your watch?Mr. Mooney. No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my watch at the time to see what time it was.Mr. Ball. Were you the only officer in that corner?Mr. Mooney. At that very moment I was.

is there any other evidence that would show mooney to correct about the time of the finding of the shells at 1.00pm ? ,yes there is when mooney found the snipers nest he shouted out the open window to tell the officers below he had found it

I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.
So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.
Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.
looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground

he looked out the window and looked down and saw will fritz arriving ,what time did will fritz arrive ? .will fritz was at the trade mart when he heard jfk was shot and he went from there to parklands and then onto elm street and the book depository (he noted the times of these events )

Mr. Ball. Did you go directly to a building?Mr. Fritz. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.Mr. Ball. What time did you arrive there?Mr. Fritz. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.Mr. Ball. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.Mr. Fritz. Yes.Mr. Ball. Were there any officers there at the time?Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir.Mr. Ball. In the front?Mr. Fritz. Several officers; yes, sir.

Mr. Fritz. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.

so the snipers nest and shells were found between 12.58 and 1.00 as mooney said and he saw fritz arriving below him
who noted the time as 12.58 . the rifle was found about 5 to 6 minutes after the shells (which shows roger craig to be accurate in his noting of the time as 1.06 which coincided with the news of tippits shooting ) this means that if a rifle was indeed found at about 1.16 pm that there were two rifles .if only one rifle was found at 1.06 it means they fabricated the timing of it being found to 1.16 in order to make it look like oswald had the time to reach tenth and patton .

also all most all the witnesses to tippits killing put the time of the killing (or having heard the shots) at 1.00 pm or shortly afterwards ,markham said it was 1.06 ,benavides had been helping someone with a stalled car in the vicinity of tenth street at 1.00pm he drove a few blocks to his place of work to get info about a part and then was on tenth and patton a few minutes later when the shooting occured ,this puts him there at the same time as markham about 1.06 .barbar davis said she heard shots shortly after 1.00pm ,ted calloway and sam guinyard both said they heard the shots about 1.00pm ,t f bowley arrives at tenth and patton after tippit has been shot and looks at his watch the time was 1.10 . benavides had witnessed the killing and had stayed in his truck untill he felt safe to leave he then goes to help tippit and from there he goes to tippits car and tries to call for help on tippits radio (he has difficulty doing this ) this is when bowley arrives at 1.10 which i estimate is upwards of 4 minutes after the shooting .

a second rifle being found does not mean oswald was innocent but it does mean a conspiracy as atleast two people were firing at jfk ,if two rifles were found why did the the commision/dpd etc lie about it ,the commision testimony indicates oswald was standing at a bus stop out side his rooming house at 1.03 maybe 1.04 and there is no possible way for him to have walked or ran just over a mile (to where tippit was shot ) in 2 to 3 minutes .this again does not exonerate oswald becuase its reasonable to believe if he was firing at jfk with a second man that this man could have givin him a ride to tenth and patton ,however i dont believe he fired any shots at anyone that day and was what he said he was a patsy .

[bowie]

all your answers here YouTube - ***x202a;JFK assination - Red Dwarf - BBC comedy***x202c;‏

[nara]

all your answers here

"It'll drive all those conspiracy nuts crazy" lol

Classic line from Lister!

[piopat]

guys i bumped this thread for people like my self who want to discuss the jfk assassination and the murders of officer j d tippit and lee oswald .

[bowie]

sorry, my bad

[piopat]

no problem bowie ,i like a laugh and joke as much as anyone . but i frequent a lot of jfk forums and post on a few and quite a lot people only post to disrupt a thread or to simply annoy a particular person on the thread (im not saying you were doing that ) and some times that makes it difficult to have a serious discussion about the evidence in this case . i hope some members on dk will post on this thread no matter if they believe in conspiracy or not .

by the way congrats on winning the the premiership ,im a liverpool fan so i hope we do a little bit better next season ,talk soon.

[piopat]

ce399 (commision exhibit 399) or the magic bullet as it is now called was the bullet (so we were told ) that struck both jfk and connally entering jfks back at the right of the spine in the shoulder area and then exiting his throath (in the adams apple area ) where it then struck connally in the area just under his right armpit (all most at the point where the back curves into his side ) the bullet then exits connallys chest (shattering numerous inches of his fifth rib ) it then struck connally in the right wrist (shattering that ) and exited his wrist and lodged in his left thigh where it fell out of connallys thigh and was found on a stretcher in parklands hospital . well thats the official story and what we were told by the warren commision , but how could the warren commision say that when they knew it wasnt backed up in anyway by the medical evidence .here is ce399 .

http://www.clintbradford.com/33-3320t.gif
http://www.clintbradford.com/33-3321t.gif
http://www.clintbradford.com/33-3322t.gif

what was the medical evidence ?


Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh?

Commander HUMES. I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile.

Representative FORD. The missile identified as Exhibit 399.

Commander HUMES. 399, sir.


Mr. SPECTER. And could it [CE 399] have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?
Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist.


Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, is it possible for the fragments identified in Commission Exhibit 840 to have come from the whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that based on weight it would be highly improbable that that much weight could have come from the base of that bullet since its present weight is--its weight when I first received it was 158.6 grains.

Mr. SPECTER. Referring now to 399.

Mr. FRAZIER. Exhibit 399, and its original normal weight would be 160 to 161 grains, and those three metal fragments had a total of 2.1 grains as I recall--2.3 grains. So it is possible but not likely since there is only a very small part of the core of the bullet 399 missing.


Mr. SPECTER: What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck?
Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.


Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, based on the tests which you have performed, was the damage inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist caused by a pristine bullet, a bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle 6.5 missile which did not hit anything before it struck the Governor's wrist?

Dr. OLIVIER. I don't believe so. I don't believe his wrist was struck by a pristine bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your conclusion on that?

Dr. OLIVIER. In this case I go by the size of the entrance wound and exit wound on the Governor's wrist. The entrance wound was on the dorsal surface, it was described by the surgeon as being much larger than the exit wound. He said he almost overlooked that on the volar aspect of the wrist.

In every instance we had a larger exit wound than an entrance wound firing with a pristine bullet apparently at the same angle at which it entered and exited the Governor's wrist. Also, and I don't believe they were mixed up on which was entrance and exit. For one thing the clothing, you know, the surgeon found pieces of clothing and the other thing the human anatomy is such that I don't believe it would enter through the volar aspect and out the top.

So I am pretty sure that the Governor's wrist was not hit by a pristine or a stable bullet.


Mr. PURDY: Dr. Wecht, is it your opinion that no bullet could have caused all of the wounds to President Kennedy and Governor Connally or the Commission exhibit 399 could not have caused all of the wounds to both men?

Dr. WECHT: Based upon the findings in this case, it is my opinion that no bullet could have caused all these wounds, not only 399 but no other bullet that we know about or any fragment of any bullet that we know about in this case.

http://www.clintbradford.com/33-3397t.gif
above are fragments removed from connallys wrist and a large fragment was in his leg untill the day he died ,but there were more fragments in the wrist
Dr. BADEN: [After asking for and receiving the above wrist X-ray of Governor Connally] The wrist was explored and operated on, and recovered from the wrist was some cloth fabric which matched the jacket of Connally. Thank you. And the largest of those metal fragments, I think there are three fragments that are visible from this distance, overlay the distal radius near the wrist - the largest of those three fragments was removed by the surgeons in the course of their operation and preserved, kept at the Archives and made available to the committee many years later.
Mr. FITHIAN: The other fragments were not removed?

Dr. BADEN: The other fragments were not removed and are still present as demonstrated on subsequent X-rays available to the committee when the Governor's arm was healing.

lets have another look at ce399 and see if we still think that bullet caused all the wounds in both jfk and connally (excluding the head shot ) and left all those fragments
http://www.clintbradford.com/33-3323t.gif

YouTube - ‪Dr. Shaw- "bullet still in leg"?!?! 11/22/63‬‏
proof the bullet found on the stretcher in parklands ce399 was not the bullet that lodged in connallys leg becuase that bullet was still in connallys leg .

the last word here belongs to the late john connally himself
YouTube - ‪JFK Assassination John & Nellie Connally On Larry King‬‏

[enterprise1701]

wasnt it said that they never found the round that killed him??

[piopat]

i assume you mean the bullet which killed jfk (the head shot bullet ) that bullet in all likely hood disintegrated .they found lots of fragments big and small on the floor of the limo .

[racin-snake]

that's more than a pity as it would have confirmed the calibre of the gun that was used
clearing up a contentious bit of evidence as the 6.5 mm Carcano and 7.65mm Mauser have a huge amount of difference in calibre and in weight

and clear up whether it was one or the other used to assassinate a President .....

[piopat]

some of the larger fragments seem to have come from a 6.5 carcano bullet i believe (im no forensic expert so i have to go by the expert testimony ) but there is plenty of other evidence which is problematic .

[jjww]

n'importe quoi...

[piopat]

there are reports of a bullet striking an area near a manhole on the south side of elm street (this is the area on the opposite side of the road from the grassy knoll ) this does not mean a shot from the knoll missed the limo and struck the area near the man hole its more indicative of a shot from the rear from either the tsbd or the daltex building .

there were reports of a shot that missed the limo and hit the road on the right side of the limo (on the street between the limo and the curb and people saw sparks ,this is before the shot ) as it passed the tsbd ,there is a mark on the pavement on the north side of elm which is all most infront of the tsbd from another shot which oswald could not have fired . not because of lack of bullets (he had left one spare shot in the rifle ) but because the angle makes it a physical impossibility for oswald to have fired it .

[racin-snake]

Piopat
is there anything in the archives you have about the withdrawal
off the two secret service men from the rear of the car the president was in at the slowest part of the drive at the corner before deeley plaza ?

also.. anything on the circumstances of the flight back to washington of the body off JFK ?

any info would be superb :top:

just to compare to what ime reading t the moment ..thanks

[piopat]

hi mate are you talking about the two agents at love field (one was henry rybka the other agents name eludes me now ) who were running along either side of jfks limo and were ordered to stop and stay at the airport by emory roberts ?
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Tiktaalik/SSagent1.gif
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Tiktaalik/Rybka777.jpg
rybka is the guy on the right of the limo with his arms out stretched wondering what the heck is going on .
YouTube - ‪JFK assassination: Secret Service Standdown‬‏

are you talking about the probable coffin switch ? .

[racin-snake]

thats the ones the coffin switch and the order of the two secret service guys away from the car
also what ime reading at the moment has a guy showing the headshot could have been from a storm drain
all these seem to be linked to other books ?
so just looking at the info before looking for the books in question

ile get a link to these other bits of info and post


:top:

[piopat]

heres a link with lots of info /videos/pictures regarding the secret service agents .
Vince Palamara's JFK SECRET SERVICE PRESIDENT KENNEDY Blog: THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT THE KENNEDY DETAIL: Jim DiEugenio re: Vince Palamara in Vince Bugliosi's book :) (http://vincepalamara.blogspot.com/2010/12/jim-dieugenio-re-vince-palamara-in.html)

here are one or two links regarding the two coffins
History Matters Archive - Air Force One Audio Recordings (http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/lbjlib/af1/audio/af1.htm)

JFK Lancer (http://www.jfklancer.com/Backes.html)

[Wolfpack]

Give it a rest. Did Oswald shoot Kennedy I don't know but i know the shots came from the book depository and the only reason people keep this thing alive is cause Jack Ruby killed Oswald before he had a chance to defend himself. Ask yourself does it really matter who killed him?

[Shady]

i know the shots came from the book depository

and how do you KNOW this?

[piopat]

"give it a rest" mate if your not interested in this topic thats fine all you have to do is not read the posts on the thread and not reply to them either .

people are keeping the case alive because people were not told the truth in 1963 and that truth is still being suppressed 47 years later . why does it matter ?

"Operation Northwoods: In the early 1960s, American military leaders drafted plans to create public support for a war against Cuba, to oust Fidel Castro from power. The plans included committing acts of terrorism in U.S. cities, killing innocent people and U.S. soldiers, blowing up a U.S. ship, assassinating Cuban ?migr?s, sinking boats of Cuban refugees, and hijacking planes. The plans were all approved by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but were reportedly rejected by the civilian leadership, then kept secret for nearly 40 years.

Author James Bamford, ***8220;A Pretext For War***8221;, discusses the declassified ***8220;Operation Northwoods***8221; documents revealing that in 1962 the CIA was planning to stage phony terrorist attacks on the US and blame it on Cuba to start a war:"
YouTube - ‪Operation Northwoods‬‏

does any of that sound familliar ? .

as i say if you dont care for this topic or dont believe there was a conspiracy thats fine your entitled to your opinion , but i also am entitled to my opinion .

[nara]

.. if you dont care for this topic or dont believe there was a conspiracy thats fine your entitled to your opinion , but i also am entitled to my opinion .

Absolutely, I would agree with you 100%.

...on the other hand, this is a forum, people are quite entitled to challenge your opinion and ask you to defend seemingly unproven assertions.

If you're looking for a cosy little room where everyone's going to agree with each other you'd be better off in a newsgroup.

[piopat]

nara your correct that if a member posts a comment (such as my self ) that other members have the right to say i think your mistaken /wrong . i have no problem what so ever with any member saying such (as you say that is a persons right ) and offering evidence which may refute any claims made by me or anyone else ( i didnt come here looking for a cosy room im here simply to see if people want to discuss the assassination) ,however wolfpack didnt make any attempt to refute any claims i have made .

there are quite a few topics discussed on this forum and i wouldnt presume to tell people what they should or should not talk about ,so my comment respectfully still stands that if a member does not wish to read or discuss a topic on a specific thread then they dont have to open the thread /read it or make any replies .

[Wolfpack]

and how do you KNOW this?
It's where they found the gun and the angle of the bullet holes shows the shots were fired from there. The only question that needs to be answered is who hired Oswald.

[racin-snake]

It's where they found the gun and the angle of the bullet holes shows the shots were fired from there. The only question that needs to be answered is who hired Oswald.

first of all if you are implying that someone hired oswald then you are in fact entertaining the thought that there was a conspiracy ?...

second point being there is the same proof t.....if not more that oswald couldn't have made all the shots that were fired the day the president was assassinated
than there is for the single gunman theory

many other theories all involving both oswald not acting on his own or more than two gunmen (conspired ?)

thirdly the new evidence and balistics testimonies from modern scientists and experts make the lone gunman theory highly unlikely
one other thing to maybe take into account is another theory of the drains in deeley plaza where the shot could just have likely have come from as the book depository

no one has ever been convicted of any involvement also
evidence ignored both old and has recently come to light

if you have an objective look you can have an informed answer and make your own decisions

lastly i personally think it is very important to have another look at the evidence and some of the witness testimonies from the people that were not heard at the inquest
and most of all important to see how high this conspiracy if proven went .

don't you ?

also in the words of JFK himself

YouTube - ***x202a;The Speech That That Got JFK Killed***x202c;‏

[Wolfpack]

Oswald made all those shots. He was a trained US Marine that qualified sharp shooter. I'm not implying someone hired him i am saying we will never know cause Ruby killed him before trial.

[piopat]

Oswald made all those shots. He was a trained US Marine that qualified sharp shooter. I'm not implying someone hired him i am saying we will never know cause Ruby killed him before trial.

i would refer you back to page 4 of this thread and to post 46 by myself .

[racin-snake]

yea right mate
even veteran snipers over 30 !! interviewed said with modern firearms they couldn't have made those shots
and as per oswalds military records he was no sharpshooter
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines

and with the Italian rifle claimed he used its even less likely plus this was a moving target my friend

go do some research and come back with an informed hypothesis

but most of all go have a look before you spout nonsense thats already been seen to be highly misleading

thousands of EXPERTS have given written testimonies of the bullshit you've obviously taken as truth and written it off as fantasy

have a good look at your previos statement as quoted above ......you did in fact say oswald may have been hired by somone
this is a statement that implies more than one person so there fore implies a conspiracy

here it is in black and white my friend

***8211;noun, plural -cies.
1.
the act of conspiring.
2.
an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3.
a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.

some research might let you come to an educated conclusion ?

[tacochuck]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t277/i8uPhZRT/not_this_shit_again.jpg

You have to love the conspiracy theorists, they don't know what really happened because they weren't there and some weren't even born yet, but because the government says it happened this way or that way, it has to be a lie according to them!

I was 3 and don't know who or why, just that he was assasinated and should be allowed to rest in peace!

[piopat]

racing snake you asked about the storm drain here is a picture of a man entering a manhole on elm street
http://artearthmann.com/conspiracyFolder/assetsFolder/dealeySewerElm203x200.jpg

and here you can see a storm drain opening on elm street (as you will see it really does not afford much room to fire a shot )
http://artearthmann.com/conspiracyFolder/assetsFolder/dealeyManhole2slit200x200.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8774/drain3.jpg

here is the storm drain entrance behind the picket fence which could have been used as a means of escape .
http://artearthmann.com/conspiracyFolder/assetsFolder/dealeySewer2Fence200x200.jpg

here is an interesting picture of a guy standing inside the storm drain looking through a gap in the fence in a snipers pose (could a shot have been fired like that ? i dont know its speculation ) but its certainly a means of escape and is one way to explain how a shooter on the knoll could disappear so quickly but there is another more obvious way for a shooter to disappear quickly . here is the picture
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9845/scan1l.jpg

[piopat]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t277/i8uPhZRT/not_this_shit_again.jpg

You have to love the conspiracy theorists, they don't know what really happened because they weren't there and some weren't even born yet, but because the government says it happened this way or that way, it has to be a lie according to them!

I was 3 and don't know who or why, just that he was assasinated and should be allowed to rest in peace!
people have a right to what they have been denied "the truth" as i said earlier if a person does not want to read about this topic (and to be fair the thread name is a big giveaway) all one has to do is not open the thread /read the posts or reply to them .

[racin-snake]

YouTube - ‪JFK Conspiracy? PROOF finally revealed! (with SOUND) Sewer RATS?‬‏

this is the link to the part of the book i am reading at the moment


also to remember this is a viable shooters position
as the road has been resurfaced and the storm drain opening to the road has been made slightly narrower since the 1960s

a trained sniper could have made that shot easily from this vantage i think also several snipers when asked made it clear that would in fact be a plausible position for the fatal head shot too