Coping car keys

[Ricohun]

Hi Everybody!

I would like to start copying car keys , copying lost keys.
What tools do I need to get?
I understand the physical copy machine and software tools.

I read ,that the OBD Star X300 DP should be let go because it is problematic.
What are reliable devices?
Thanks for your help!

[Spiritech]

Is this for a business you're attempting to establish? Or an extra market opportunity for a currently trading business? Have you looked into required licencing for your jurisdiction? Do you have appropriate insurance should something go wrong? Do you have a particular range of make model year that you are attempting to work on?

It's useless thinking about tools before you have some idea about what it is you're trying to achieve. Furthermore before you go spending a single dollar on tools I would be finding training on how this works. Key cutting and programming is often not for the faint of heart as if you make one mistake you could have done thousands of dollars of damage(at dealer prices) and you have no idea how to fix it. After some training you will probably have an idea of what tools you might like to use, and what cars you might like to work on.

Also if you're making a business of car keys be ready and willing to invest and re-invest over and over again in development, training, and tooling. This isn't a cheap and easy industry to break into, and if you make a mistake you can't repair you will end up thousands behind in seconds.

[rapidlocksmiths]

what is your background , do you have any vehicle repair or electronic skills and background , skills that will help you with this ?

No such thing as the perfect tool ,Every tool has the capacity to kill a vehicle , some are safer than others , some are better at one make than another but worse on another make , no 1 tool does it all , users kill cars more than tools do.

The biggest cause of killing a car is user error and users lack of knowledge , many press buttons hoping for the best with no knowledge of what the tool is doing in the background and no knowledge of the system they are working on .

training and research is needed long before you buy a tool , if starting a business im sure you will have researched the area you hope to work in and formed a business plan to gauge the viability of your venture , if not this should be your first step.

you should research your area , what are the most common cars in the area , make models and years , this info is golden as you then know what tools to buy , what lock picks you require , what programmers you require and what training you may need, who are your competitors in the area , how well do they do , can the area sustain another service ?
for the cars you hope to work on , what stock will you need to carry , what tools etc , without this info how can you work out what investment you must make ?

this research and the answers it yields gives you the ability to target what you need accurately saving alot of wasted investment.

then get on google and research the systems you hope to work on , understand them , read on what cars you should never attempt and which carry high risk so should be avoided especially at the outset .

then get very good insurance that covers you to work on vehicles , you will be grateful of it when you brick a car , build relationships with local professionals who can fix things when they go wrong .

it takes many years to even become competent , its not a matter of buy a tool and away you go . proper research and forming a plan along with targetted training and knowledge saves tears for many later down the line .

just to add , obdstar is actually a very good tool on a number of vehicles , poor on some and likely to fail on some , in the right knowledgable hands it can do far more safely than the same tool in novice hands.
Even the very best tools can brick a vehicle in unskilled hands .

so in short , research your business plan , ensure its viable , identify the training and investment needs and do research on the vehicle systems you hope to work on , you will need a number of tools and this investment is ongoing , it never stops , and every day is a school day , the need to learn also never stops.

you say you want to copy lost keys , you cant copy lost keys as you dont have a key to copy from , so you need to learn how to pick and decode the locks or how to open remove and strip the locks in order to cut a key , the full set of picks and decoders is around 200 tools , which ones you need to buy and learn on depends what make model and year of vehicle you want to work on , then you will need a good electrinic cut to code machine , then various key programmers to buy and learn to use dependent on the makes models and years of vehicle you hope to work on.

[Ricohun]

Thank you for your answers!
I have a technical interest!
I also fix cars as a hobby.
GSM for 20 years I was an unlocker.
There are a lot of tools available, I don't know what is the right one to start with.
Abundance disorder?
I know it takes several years.
Tools needed for an ECU reader (kess, or foxflash) key copier: xhorse dolphin, Autel km100, raw keys, transponders? a good website. I think these are the first?


what year and make? As it is, obviously high-end luxury cars are dangerous for me.

[Spiritech]

Thank you for your answers!
I have a technical interest!
I also fix cars as a hobby.
GSM for 20 years I was an unlocker.
There are a lot of tools available, I don't know what is the right one to start with.
Abundance disorder?
I know it takes several years.
Tools needed for an ECU reader (kess, or foxflash) key copier: xhorse dolphin, Autel km100, raw keys, transponders? a good website. I think these are the first?


what year and make? As it is, obviously high-end luxury cars are dangerous for me.

It is not just high-end luxury cars that can cause you issues. Something as simple as as Toyota 2nd or 3rd gen immo with hardware issues that you haven't looked at before you press 'Reset immo' can end up with a non-running vehicle til you've stripped it down to the dash reinforcer to EEPROM keys back into the immobox.

There are so many things to check, so many edge cases, so many issues that we couldn't detail them all if we had the hours to write it down as some of us it only comes back when we see the issues.

It's good you have some history of working with cars but key and immo programming is a whole new beast unless you've done it before. I really suggest you either find some commercial training or find someone local to you who can teach you a little here and there.

Just today I repaired two BMWs with dead FEM/BDC due to unqualified/inexperienced people causing issues, I repaired a Toyota last week with a 0 keys immobox thanks to someone attempting an immo reset with the car not in a proper condition, 2 weeks ago I repaired a Mercedes Benz that had been rooted by a 'locksmith' doing some really poor soldering work in an EZS. I repaired a Honda a month or so back that someone had attempted key programming on and managed to kick the link between immobox & ECU.

These are just a few of the recent repairs I've done with problems caused by people with all the tools but no knowledge.

Now all this doesn't address the legislative requirements of your market, are you in the EU or US? You may require SERMI or NASTF certification to purchase some things you may need like pincodes or even genuine software for programming some vehicles.

I'm not trying to discourage you by any means, I'm just trying to make you aware that keys and security programming is a lot deeper rabbit hole than it seems from the outside.

[Ricohun]

Very kind and thank you for writing.
yes is that hard, who will teach me a little? Who would create competition for themselves in Budapest.
It's a pleasure to read how many mistakes you were able to solve that were caused by someone else.
At Toyota, what does immo reset mean in an improper condition?
Br

[rapidlocksmiths]

Very kind and thank you for writing.
yes is that hard, who will teach me a little? Who would create competition for themselves in Budapest.
It's a pleasure to read how many mistakes you were able to solve that were caused by someone else.
At Toyota, what does immo reset mean in an improper condition?
Br

This response backs up spiratechs advice on get some formal training as well as advice already given of doing alot more research , it is essential to have some knowledge at least of the vehicles you plan to plug into.
with alot of toyota systems immo reset is the method used to code keys , basicly resetting the immo to blank state then coding keys to it , but conditions must be correct to do this safely .

The tools you have mentioned buying are lower end tools , yes they will do some cars but you will be walking away from plenty too , the risk of bricking intensifies alot when plugging in and pressing buttons without knowledge of the make model and system you are working on , sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you dont , when you dont the cost to fix can ruin a new start up if not properly insured.

Why do you need to seek training in budapest ? travel and get training elsewhere ,

its not just high end cars that can humble you and cause you headaches , even ford , opel , fiat can cause issues , psa renault and nissan can cause big issues for the press and go brigade plugging in and pressing buttons with no supporting knowledge on the system
they work on.

and its not just this that causes issues , you are attending customer vehicles , many do not look after their vehicles as they should , certain faults on cars will cause you headaches , bodge diy repairs will cause you headaches , diy electrics and radio fitting will cause you headaches , low voltage batteries can cause you major headaches . of course if the car was running and now its not then its your fault as you was last to plug into it .

if you stay away from every car that can cause you a headache or a problem then you wont do very many jobs at all , as with low end tools and little system knowledge then every car can cause you an issue , with tools you really do get what you pay for.

consider a common van in europe , you have a customer with a common renault traffic manufacturered in 2017 with all keys lost , you now need to be able to go to the vehicle , open the vehicle , decode the lock and cut a working key , then do your prechecks of the vehicle checking vins match in all units fitted to the vehicle if they dont you fix this first or you walk away , if all match you then apply battery support ensuring battery maintains 13.8 to 14v throughout with no dips , you then select your tool to do this job and code the key , the tool you have said your buying is not one that will do this job. lots of these are sitting bricked around europe.

another common scenario for you , your customer has a simple ford focus 2014 year with all keys lost , but ignition lock was changed so works on a different key to door , you now need to decode both the door and the ignition lock to cut new keys , so the correct tool and skill required for this , long before you plug in to code in the keys.

have you ever picked a lock open before ? have you ever used a lishi pick and decoder ? have you looked into which lishi picks and decoders you will need for the cars you will go to ? what do you know about key series and series rules to help you decode ?

no one is trying to put you off this venture , quite the opposite , if serious about this then its worth getting it right as this journey ends in tears and at expense for many .

[Spiritech]

Very kind and thank you for writing.
yes is that hard, who will teach me a little? Who would create competition for themselves in Budapest.
It's a pleasure to read how many mistakes you were able to solve that were caused by someone else.
At Toyota, what does immo reset mean in an improper condition?
Br

There are many things that cause incorrect conditions which can cause key programming and immobiliser resets/relearns to fail, they're as varied as the cars themselves. There's examples like rapid just used of a Renault Trafic where if you have unmatched VINs in modules it can cause bricked cars.

That particular Toyota was caused by someone not checking that the immo box had permanent 12v power and then resetting the immo box. Toyota gen2/3 (67/G) will only learn keys in a virgin state when the immobox has a permanent 12v power feed as it learns keys when the key is inserted, not turned on. Vehicle was starting and running fine, customer only had a slave and wanted a master for programming further keys so the locksmith reset it. Now the car doesn't run and has no way of learning keys without either removing the dashboard and writing keys direct to the box OR finding the reason why the ECU-B No. 2 circuit has no power.

BMW failures are common when people press buttons they don't understand or don't back up the right information before proceeding with programming steps. Or even worse when they interrupt a programming procedure.

Renault has the same issues with virginising/flashing modules.

Peugeot Citroen can fail easily during a PIN read if you don't apply enough power to the vehicle as the BSI starts firing relays and chewing power off the battery during diagnostic programming/reading.

Jaguar/Land Rover can kick the Target Identity links if the wrong tool is used or the wrong button is pressed, now you need SDD/Pathfinder to fix it.

You MUST have some base knowledge of what you are doing, why you are doing it and most importantly how to reduce the risks of the procedure you are about to undertake. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for failure. As good of a resource this forum is it cannot teach you the base knowledge required, it might help you fix an issue or two but also be aware that help is a two way street here and some might eventually stop helping because you're not in a position to reciprocate.

If you must buy the tools then learn by doing, please learn by doing on wrecker yard vehicles rather than customer vehicles. At least then you won't have an upset customer calling you several times a day asking when they get their car back.

[Ricohun]

Thanks for your help! Yes, food for thought. Obviously, I don't want to brick customers' vehicles either.
All I can educate myself is that whoever I buy the equipment from is the sellers who hold training.
But that's not enough for a high level of acquaintance.
I am not in a hurry, I am thinking, looking for a professional teacher.
Br

[Spiritech]

Thanks for your help! Yes, food for thought. Obviously, I don't want to brick customers' vehicles either.
All I can educate myself is that whoever I buy the equipment from is the sellers who hold training.
But that's not enough for a high level of acquaintance.
I am not in a hurry, I am thinking, looking for a professional teacher.
Br

I wish you luck in finding someone who can help train you. I will not lie, this job is one of the most challenging and rewarding ones you can take on. You get to deal with both mechanical and electronic issues without having the hard work of removing and refitting large modules like engines and transmissions.

However it is also one of the riskiest industries to join as we've said, because one wrong move and you have a paperweight in car form in front of you. I fix so many vehicles damaged by others it's really disappointing at times though the way some take on these jobs without the proper knowledge. This is why I warn you against pushing ahead without some training at very least, not to discourage you but to give you a true representation of the work you are trying to take on.

[Ricohun]

Thank you for the encouragement. Would you like to know what happened to the Renault car? And Toyota is also very interested in how it can be messed up.

[rapidlocksmiths]

renault can be a simple job on older models , cheap tools like truecode from halkyard tech will make short work of most older renault vehicles . the fun starts when you get models from 2015 and then gets more complex when you get models from 2019 and then more complex again from 2021 . not all these are simple obd , some have introduced a gateway where special cables are required in adition.

take the now old traffic 3 , this 1st generation started end of 2014 and ran to 2019 , plenty of these suffered unit failure , most commonly abs module and airbag module , cheap garages fit a 2nd hand module from another car and all will work fine until you come to code a key , during the process the vehicle spots the miss matched vins in the conor units and bricks itself. only a foll plugs into these without checking that the vins match in all units. traffic 3 from 2020 gets more complex again.

during key programming on renault like psa you must maintain the battery voltage with no dips or it ends in tears.

many tools including autel tools brick traffic 3 on all keys lost , all tools can brick a renault car when reading pin on later systems , good tools like abrites give you some options to fix this and recover it when it happens , they will also get you to post the damaged unit to them and they will fix it if they cant do it via team viewer , most others dont offer this.

this is why i said do your research and decide what makes model and year you want to work on.

buy instacode this helps with key rules , key search and series search and keyway id , when looking at key programmers consider an im508s as one of starter tools as user friendly menus , but also consider a token tool like smart pro , abrites if you can afford this and lots more as you grow , if wanting to do vag consider vvdi2 as well , do not neglect good insurance , i hope you never have to use it but you will be relieved if you do need it as dealers will have your pants down to repair .

as spiratech says its a great trade with an awful lot to learn , as an industry that moves very fast things change yearly with new systems new challenges and new study and learning required to keep up , its a game , manufacturers keep updating their systems to lock us out and we are always investing and playing catch up , its also one of most expensive you will see as when things change new software is needed new tools for new locks , new stock , the spending never stops , but rewards can still be very good if you can do the vehicles your competitors cannot , not so good if just competing with everyone on the simpler jobs.

your success or failure in this trade depends solely on you , what effort you put in to research and learn , what time you invest in training on the bench or in the scrap yard and how much money you invest in your stock equipment and business .