Police minister plays down threat to shoot riot arsonists

[super jumbe]

he police minister, Nick Herbert, has tried to calm fears that the police may adopt new tactics of shooting arsonists with live ammunition in any future riot.

Herbert confirmed to MPs that police chiefs were in talks with Home Office ministers about buying water cannons to use for the first time in the UK outside Northern Ireland, and about using plastic bullets.

After the publication of the official inquiry report into police tactics in the summer riots, the minister said the legal power for police to shoot arsonists who seriously endangered life by setting fire to shops with occupied flats above did exist.

But he said the idea was contained in a legal annexe to the riots report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Police Constabulary (HMIC), in which a leading barrister, Timothy Otty QC, outlined the legal options for police in dealing with disorder.

"To suggest that the Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary has recommended this today would be to go too far," Herbert said.

The legal annexe outlines several scenarios in which lethal force could be used, including when cars are being driven directly at officers and when firearms are directed at police officers. It adds that arson attacks on commercial buildings linked to residential homes would also constitute a threat to life and justify the use of force.

Otty said the use of plastic bullets against individuals, water cannon to disperse a crowd and "potentially the use of firearms" would also be justified as a last resort. The use of firearms with live ammunition could be justified against arsonists when life is being endangered given the "immediacy of the risk and the gravity of the consequences", says the legal annexe.

The HMIC report, commissioned by the home secretary, says serious consideration needs to be given to the use of water cannon and plastic bullets as part of a radical shift in police tactics to deal with public disorder. It concludes that the police in many cities were not well prepared for the "widespread, fast-moving and opportunistic criminal attacks on property" seen during the August riots.

O'Connor's call for a public debate on the use of water cannon and plastic bullets comes as the Metropolitan police consider buying three water cannon at a cost of nearly ?4m. It follows a warning this week from the Commons home affairs committee that the use of water cannon and plastic bullets would be indiscriminate and dangerous.

The report also raises the prospect of calling in the army, saying that option is being explored at a senior level, but adds that it is difficult to see how the use of a military level of force would be justified.

The report says five people died in the riots with many more hurt, including 300 officers, in unrest which spanned 20 police force areas. It suggests the 1981 inner city riots were on a larger scale with more officers injured.

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the human rights campaign group Liberty, said of the potential shooting of arsonists: "The police have always been able to use violent force to save lives in extreme situations. No new power or strategy is required for that to remain the case.



But how on earth would bullets have quelled and not inflamed this summer's riots?

Didn't the widespread disorder all begin in Tottenham with a fatal police shooting?"

[Johnner]

Last summers scenes of disorder were sickening.

What's worse is that it took so long to regain control on the polices part.

My personal opinion is this: If innocent lives are at risk anywhere,be it in upstairs flats,on the streets,etc,then immediate action is taken.You get shot by rubber,hosed down extremely harshly or battened.No excuses !!

There has to be order on the streets,or people get injured and killed.

I don't know why there has to be this arsing around with legislation or legalities.Put the damn thing into place,and let people test it as situations arise.Keep the streets safe first and foremost.

[aleister crowley]

To be honest, if they are using firebombs etc on properties, then they are putting at risk the lives of other, innocent citizens.
Too right they should be shot if that's what it takes to stop and/or apprehend them. Why should they be allowed to potentially kill innocent civilians living in their own homes ?

[gc1966]

yep, if lives are in danger then shoot the thieving scumbags,restoring order is paramount,do not waste time on a water cannon unless it contains a dye making it easier to find the culprits after the event.

no sympathy

[super jumbe]

That?s what third world countries do, shot people at site, and kill in the name of preventing law and order.

Why are we going round telling other countries not to shot?

[aleister crowley]

That***8217;s what third world countries do, shot people at site, and kill in the name of preventing law and order.

Why are we going round telling other countries not to shot?

The report says they should be shot when they are burning down commercial properties with links to peoples homes, ie they are above the burning building, so they won't be able to get out.
You can still go and burn down Marks and Spencers and not get shot. But when it's a newsagents where the family lives above the property, if you start burning that then you get shot.

[Snowy79]

Live rounds are going a bit too far in a public place. They should be shot with rubber bullets then taken to somewhere that the public can't be endangered then shot with real bullets. I'd also allow anyone with their face covered to be shot with rubber bullets.

It's all part of scare mongering from the tabloids sadly. In the armed forces you can only shoot someone when they are a direct threat to you, so if someone throws a petrol bomb at you the second it leaves his hands you can't open fire. The same as when someone fires at you. If they then turn their back you can't open fire so I don't see the Police opening fire on the rioters.

[Johnner]

Snowy,am I reading this right ? You can't return fire when someone turns their back on you after firing on you ?Huh ?

You can't fire on someone who's intent on killing you with a molotov ?You won't always have a shield to deflect it !

BTW,I'm talking about rubber bullets here.


That doesn't sound right.Why even arm anyone then ?

[Snowy79]

Exactly, the Army rules of engagement have been written by idiots. The minute someone is no longer a threat to yourself or a comrade you can no longer use lethal means against them. You only have to look at the investigations into the military to see why they try and cover their arses as much as they can. Personaly the minute a Soldier/Policeman has to go into a situation armed it should be up to those around them to get out of the way or suffer the consequences. No prisoners.

Snowy,am I reading this right ? You can't return fire when someone turns their back on you after firing on you ?Huh ?

You can't fire on someone who's intent on killing you with a molotov ?You won't always have a shield to deflect it !

BTW,I'm talking about rubber bullets here.


That doesn't sound right.Why even arm anyone then ?

[Johnner]

I agree with you.Once you see armed personnel on the scene,you should know they're there for a good reason.If you persist,well,there should be one outcome only !

[aleister crowley]

In the armed forces you can only shoot someone when they are a direct threat to you, so if someone throws a petrol bomb at you the second it leaves his hands you can't open fire. The same as when someone fires at you. If they then turn their back you can't open fire so I don't see the Police opening fire on the rioters.

Oh good...another Rambo.

TA was it or catering?

[Canker_Canison]

I wouldn't have all this pussyfooting around.

Snipers should of been used during the riots. If they see someone acting in an anti-social behaviour... off with their head.

Maybe I've been playing GTA to much. But I'd think twice about going out & causing shit if there was the risk of getting my head blown off.


On a slightly more serious note, but not by much

It was the rain that stopped the riots. So water cannon would probably be very effective. Throw in a bit of soap & scrub the filthy ~~~~ers while their at it.

[super jumbe]

~~~~ all that words do not mean anything??..

The original question was to shot the rioters causing arsonists.

If you look at the anger of people behind what was the course of igniting the riots?

Police lied, shot to kill policy, no trust in the police.

This has got to stop, govt can not go round doing some thing wrong and lied behind all odds, there comes the time people say enough is enough we can not go round seeing our love ones getting killed.

If all the doors are closed on the legal side, people take the matter into there own hand, and things go out of control, they do not care the aftermath.

Remember it?s the people are electing the govt and about time they should look into what they can do to improve the life of the society.

[bobwill]

~~~~ all that words do not mean anything***8230;***8230;..

The original question was to shot the rioters causing arsonists.

If you look at the anger of people behind what was the course of igniting the riots?

Police lied, shot to kill policy, no trust in the police.

This has got to stop, govt can not go round doing some thing wrong and lied behind all odds, there comes the time people say enough is enough we can not go round seeing our love ones getting killed.

If all the doors are closed on the legal side, people take the matter into there own hand, and things go out of control, they do not care the aftermath.

Remember it***8217;s the people are electing the govt and about time they should look into what they can do to improve the life of the society.

And the bloody goverment wants the nice people to work for there benifits .The police dont want them to deal in drugs and to stop stealing ,next they wil be stopped kicking the shit out of pensioners then what will those nice rioters do

[gc1966]

Oh good...another Rambo.

TA was it or catering?

nah man, he was in the ta version of the sas





















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