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Why not?
Today's statements are in no way conclusive with regards as to 'who is to blame'
The problem is that this subject runs deep with the liverpool fans. I have a lot of questions regarding today's developments. Myself and possibly others feel the same but don't want to post as they are stepping in a potential minefield.
Guess you could say I was testing the water.Comment
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Well test it elsewhere.
THE TRUTH
The Hillsborough Independent Panel. 12/09/12
Today's report is black and white.The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster.
The panel has quite simply found 'no evidence' in support of allegations of 'exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans' and 'no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium' and 'no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying'.Comment
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That's what I like about this site...the ability to have a balanced debate.
Fair enough Bulldog and anyone else but I'm going to post my own opinion.
I love the way that the Liverpool fans will only endorse any truth as long as it takes the blame away from them.
Yes, the Police were at fault for failing to keep control of a spiralling situation.
Yes, the Police were at fault for failing to react correctly and organise the rescue operation in coordination with the other emergency services.
Yes, the infrastructure at the ground was inadequate to cope with excessive numbers.
Yes, the Police may have tried to cover for their own inadequacies in the aftermath.
But it all boils down to this.
Were there hundreds of Liverpool fans at the back of a crowd pushing forward, resulting in the crushing of the fans at the front of the crowd?
It doesn't matter if they were drunk, sober, with tickets or without, the Liverpool fans at the back of the crowd HAVE to share the blame for the situation developing before they let South Yorkshire Police take over with cocking up the aftermath.
In fact, the only innocent people in the whole sorry episode were the poor 96 sods who paid the price for EVERYBODY'S mistakes.Comment
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THE TRUTH
The Hillsborough Independent Panel. 12/09/12
Today's report is black and white.The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster.
The panel has quite simply found 'no evidence' in support of allegations of 'exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans' and 'no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium' and 'no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying'.Comment
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I live not many miles down the road from Liverpool. I have a few good friends who live there. It isn't just about the football fans though it mainly concerns them. It is equally about the people of Liverpool.
The media and the political hacks have besmirched the name of Liverpudlians for far too long. Remember Boris Johnson's insensitive comments? Even the intelligent Alan Bennett couldn't hold himself back from making a snide comment about the people and its culture. At one time it was de rigeur to lampoon people from the North-West. Flat cap, ferrets and all that.
They forget it's history and culture at their peril. There are not many cities where the people wear their hearts on their sleeves with pride. Liverpool does just that. There are also not that many cities that suffered the ravages of Thatcherism.
No matter what rationalising or abstractions come out in the next few weeks the bottom line will forever be the conclusions of the report. It was damning of the State and its agents.Comment
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I'll never forget watching the live footage as the tragedy unfolded, and the panic on peoples faces,
It's amazing all the apologies coming out now, especially from the scum, Kelvin MacKenzie represents everything I hate about that rag.Last edited by tshirtman; 13 September, 2012, 02:19.!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleHComment
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The only thing I believe in the sun is the date and I am waiting for them to get this wrong,
Sad that it has taken all this time to find out all the details of what happened that day but when you have bent police its allways a problem getting the truth.
Going off topic a bit but same theme look how bad the victims of aberfan disaster where treated how the goverment tried to hide things up then took there fund to have tip removed ,then anyone who complained had them follow by mi5 .I read one report saying that Labour was not bothered what the victims said because they will vote for them anyway,the torys would not do anything because the miners would never vote for them.If it had been a marginal seat both partys would have all over them giving them all they asked for.
I wonder as I think but not 100% sure that liverpool is very safe seats for labour that that is why it was not sorted out sooner ,not talking about local mps but WestminsterComment
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A still remember that horrific day very clearly, a was in the pub with my Dad when it flashed up on the telly..
The whole pub just stopped, then the same chant was shouted time and time again, "will someone fu*&*** do something".
Its that horrible feeling when your powerless to do something and people are dying.
When a saw the Sun headlines the following day a felt sick as a dog, how could they report this vile crap at a time of such tragedy, how could anyone with a brain buy this bloody rag..
If i cant stand Kelvin Mackenzie then God knows how people from Liverpool feel, and a cant imagine how the victims families must feel..
As far as i am concerned he can take his apology and shove it as far up his Tory ass as it will go.
Thatcher has to take her share of the blame, she was never shy at using the police to clear up her messes.
My mates Dad was a miner, he was a giant man but would never say boo to a goose and he was on the picket line.
He came home one day and literally fell out his car with his face covered in blood.
My Dad ran out the house and helped drag him into ours to clean him up, he looked at my Dad and said, "that wasn't police, they were animals, they wouldn't stop beating me".
The police back then thought they were above everything and accountable for nothing..
I hope they throw the book at the police who lied and cheated there way out of taking responsibility for Hillsborough.
The fact its taken so long to get to the truth is a tragedy for the people of Liverpool, but i did punch the air in delight when a heard the news."Windows - A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."Comment
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well I've read it all.
what's most salient, to me, is the fact that all accounts (by fans and those who attended) were factually correct. in every case!
none of the facts, provided by the Police, were found to be true.
none of this is a surprise to anyone who was involved, either directly, or through family.
its just sickening its taken so long.
put, pin heads like aleister crowley, abound. and the "fan fault" myth, is still perpetuated.
now we need to see court action against: (my opinion)
Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield
Superintendent Bernard Murray
Chief Superintendent Donald Denton
Peter Metcalf (Hammond Suddards, SYP solicitors)
the S?N its then editor and it Proprietor
(I've not added the Evening Standard, first paper to print the "drunk Fan", myth, because they printed it as "unsubstantiated, but corroborated", police reports. not as FACT)
MP, Irvine Patnick
Paul Middup, South Yorkshire Police Federation Secretary
Peter Wright, South Yorkshire Chief Constable
SWFC
Sheffield Council. HSE
SYAS
White?s News Agency.
were getting to the "nub" of the problem here Hoppy.
SYP was Thatchers Army. and, where possible, made untouchable under law. with none of their actions even questioned. or any of its THUGS held to account.
add this to the Decade long attack on the City and people of Liverpool, by Thatcher and her dogs.
and the equally long attack on "football", and its fans
helps put the decade in perspective.
Firemouth rules for life.
If it aint broke, don't fix it!
If its broke, fix it and use it again!
If it proper broke, use it for something else!Comment
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It certainly does, Britain was dead in the 80s and we were all under the kosh of Thatcher's dream that many people fell for but didn't see the long term effects.
We went from a industrial powerhouse to a retail nation in a couple of years..
When a was growing up the street went from a few unemployed Dads to half the street on the dole, hard guys who only knew hard graft being asked to stack shelves or retrain to work in a call centre.
It never crossed mad Maggie's mind that some of those industries could have been saved with some planning and compromise, nope, flog the lot.
She laughed at the suggestion of saving the car industry and the French, last time a checked Renault own Nissan and are doing fine.
It is scary to think of the 80s under the Tories, do it our way or get fired, protest will be met by Maggies hatchet men..
What scares me is Cameron is doing the same thing, just in a more polite manner..
"Windows - A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."Comment
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what's scary, hoppy, is the British public are so greedy/stupid, possibly both, (legacy of the Thatcher years) they are falling for it.
remember high unemployment, was a "price worth paying". thatchers own words. and the welfare dependence we now here so much about. was directly created by her.
yet again we are back to attacking those with the least and who had no hand, at all, in creating the mess we are in now.
those who did (cause the problems) are now being treated to massive wage and perk increases.
whilst the innocent (on low to medium wages0 are being forced to pay for it.
as leader of the opposition, Cameron milked hundreds of thousands off the NHS, money he could have afforded, to help his kid. as soon as he no longer had need for it, he set about destroying the NHS. (now i have no problem with him getting it, its everyone's right)
again, very revealing.
Firemouth rules for life.
If it aint broke, don't fix it!
If its broke, fix it and use it again!
If it proper broke, use it for something else!Comment
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i will never forget that day. i was a liverpool fan and have always had a soft spot for them as i loved kenny dalglish and the liverpudlians.
as last the truth is out there which i hope is some sort of comfort to the bereaved families.
may they now Rest In Peace
ps i have to say here that in my opinion its wrong to ban someone just because they dont agree with a member of staff. everyone has the right to their own opinion and freedom of speech.sigpic
Its nice to be important, but it's more important to be niceComment
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Read the title again. It was about the release of the papers, it was not open to debate. For 23 years i've heard shit off people who know **** all, accusing the Liverpool fans and believing the shit written by the sun.
Well the TRUTH finally come out,and within a couple of hours he had to disagree with the facts. Despite him having discussed it on other forums he came here to test the water, he was told not to test it here but decided, **** it i will anyway. So i banned him. It's just as well i'm used to people like him always wanting to give opinions on things they don't understand, if i didn't i may have banned him for life.
THE TRUTH
The Hillsborough Independent Panel. 12/09/12
Today's report is black and white.The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster.
The panel has quite simply found 'no evidence' in support of allegations of 'exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans' and 'no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium' and 'no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying'.Comment
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