Scottish Independence

[johnboy1974]

So in the last 7 years running Scotland what has the SNP achieved by way of negotiating more devolved powers for Scotland, apart from getting this referndum? Isn't the fact that the SNP haven't negotiated anything away from London an indication of a failure on the SNP's part - I'd have thought that devolution of more powers to Scotland to help the people out would have been high on the list of priorities from the minute the SNP formed the goverbment in 2007. Just goes to show how wrong you can be thinking that a government is there to get the best deal for the people of their countrie eh.


However the SNP know best and I'm sure as Scotlands elected MP's they have their own targets to fill their pockets with as much public money as possible and get out asap. MP's do the same in the rest of the UK so that never changes. I have no bias, all MP's are the same. They say what they think you want to hear and tell half truths and then change their minds.


As for businesses coming out this week and saying prices may well go up, well that's a fact of life. What did anyone expect, companies to allow their profits to fall? From what I hear and read teh SNP are up in arms over it. Why don't the people of Scotland deserve to know the whole costs of their vote?


Check on any courier service for the UK, you'll find they charge more for delivery outlying areas - compaies in business to make a profit it's in their nature. The Post Office has a USO for the UK which means letters and the like cost the same to deliver anywhere in the UK, but obviously if Scotland leaves the UK then they won't be part of the USO for the Post Office, that's unless I missed the "USO for the UK, and foreign countries" part, and I'm sure I didn't. This means that delivery costs are very likely to go up for Scotland, and may even come down for the UK since the rest of the UK, where it costs less for the PO to deliver, have been paying a rate that was perhaps higher thus allowing the Post Office to fullfill it's obligations under USO. So what it's only letters, tell that to people living outside of Edinburgh, Perth and Glasgow. If the cost of posting letters goes up then what about the costs to banks, telephone companies, utility companies and the like who send quarterly statements? Well I'm sure they'll find someone to pay for the extra costs that may be charged for delivery in Scotlands outlying areas, after all companies are there to make a profit and the people of Scotland will be the customers to foot the extra cost. Unless of course the Scottish government subsidises that to keep the price low?


Delivery costs for transported goods must surely be higher in those areas which aren't Glasgow, Edinburgh and Perth. I'm not making that up, it's a fact - transportation costs money. Where is the incentive for teh likes of Asda, John Lewis, Tesco etc to keep the price teh same for Scotland when in reality it costs them more to deliver there? One of the thoughts for such companies must be "I can open a new superstore in Narn and have the transportation costs or I can open one in Newcastle" - which do you think they will choose? I think someone is quoted as saying that other reteailers will appear if the likes of Asda don't bother. Great how many companies have the buying power of say Asda to keep prices low? Compare the price of a can of Salmon in Asda to your local corner shop and let me know.


Telecoms companies are about to reveal the costs for Scotland as well, so you may want to keep an eye on that one as well. Remote areas already quite bad for reception may find prices rising. You may also find yourself paying roaming charges south of the border. It'll be alright on the night.


Overall you have to remember only 5 million people, so 1/12 of the market, the other 11/12ths offer the potential for greater volume of sales and cheaper costs for delivery so higher chance of profit, doesn't matter what it is that's being sold.


Institutions such as I've mentioned before DVLA/Immigration Service/HMRC/Bank of England and so on, I hope the SNP has given the full cost of setting all these up? Holyrood was to cost between ?10 and ?40 million, excellent estimate, but totally wrong ?414 million so between 40 and 10 times the estimated cost. Costs for setting of Scotland as being independent are said to be around ?2.7 billion, would you care to multiply that by 40 times for 10 times to get the real value?


However at the end of the day it's Scotlands choice. However had the SNP been interested in the peopel of Scotland don't you think they'd have been negotiating more powers for the government of Scotland to do more for the people of Scotland rather than sitting on their hands as they have been? Odd behaviour and if you were a cynic you'd have to think "For 7 years they've done nothing to try get a better deal for Scotlands people when they were voted in and empowered to do so. The only thing they have achieved is getting a referendum to leave the UK. Now they don't like the truth about the cost. They've done nothing but complain about bullying when all that's being told is the truth. That smacks of a group that have no answers and no plans to produce any either"


Not posting any more you can all rest at ease

Yeah I lied, don't the outlying areas gets a subsidy for the cost of fuel? Unsure who pays that but I don't recall it being the Scottish government. The subsidy exists because of the distances when travelling. Apply the same to businesses and you'll see what I mean.

Gaston you fail to grasp that the Scottish electorate don't look at this as anything to do with the snp. The ballot paper says do you think Scotland should be an independent country?. If the answer is yes then the country goes to the polls in a Scottish general election. Stop making this about the snp, and contribute something constructive please.


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[gopher7]

The problem is that Westminster are telling everyone that it's UK verses the SNP. So that's what everyone thinks it is.
The YES campaign is a grassroots campaign, whereas the NO campaign is being run by the rich & elite of the British State who's sole job is to keep the money flowing into London and the S/E at all costs, and to hell with the rest of the UK. Scotland is being asked wether they want to be Independent and control it's destiny,or still be told by the millionaires in London how to live their lives.

[GastonJ]

Gaston you fail to grasp that the Scottish electorate don't look at this as anything to do with the snp. The ballot paper says do you think Scotland should be an independent country?. If the answer is yes then the country goes to the polls in a Scottish general election. Stop making this about the snp, and contribute something constructive please.


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Was it not the SNP who requested the referendum, are they not the leading party in government in Scotland at this time, are they not providing policy and strategy for the Yes campaign? - I can reword it for you - OK then the Scottish government (the majority of which are SNP MP's) has failed since 2007 when it was elected to negotiate powers for the benefit of the Scottish people away from London. All the Scottish government have done is dropped an ultimatum in the form of a referendum on the Scottish people. The rest of all that I wrote was accurate and I see no reason to change it. Fact is that it does cost more to deliver goods and services to anywhere in Scotland outside of Edinburgh, Perth or Glasgow. I'm not making that up, it's real, you know it and the Scottish Yes campaigners know it. What does happen is the SNP (Alex leads the SNP) accuse anyone who states that as being the case as 'scaremongering, bullying and whatever" when in reality it means that those that form the government who wanted the referendum (SNP led government) don't have any answers (and any other real questions on detail) and it will be the people of Scotland who will pay through the nose for the lack of honesty and foresight.

Happier now?

"Yes Scotland's chief executive is Blair Jenkins, and Dennis Canavan is the chair of its advisory board.Stephen Noon, a long term employee and policy writer of the SNP, is Yes Scotland's chief strategist. "

*shrug*

[rds60h]

Gaston you fail to grasp that the Scottish electorate don't look at this as anything to do with the snp. The ballot paper says do you think Scotland should be an independent country?. If the answer is yes then the country goes to the polls in a Scottish general election. Stop making this about the snp, and contribute something constructive please.


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Johnboy1974 it is great for someone to have National pride in their country and as you say the vote is about the Country and not the Party, but as the SNP are the major force behind the Yes campaign it is only natural that they will be mentioned.
So clouding the actual financial arguments against Independence by saying it is nothing to do with the SNP is reacting in exactly the way Alex Salmond (I use his name not because of the SNP but because he is a major figurehead in the Yes campaign) is reacting.
It cannot be ignored that no consideration whatsoever has been taken into account of the need and cost of Independent Services, assumptions of being allowed to use the existing UK services is crass stupidity and arrogance. There has been no proper thought given to establishing Independent Currency, Taxation and an Income and Revenue Service, a Health Service, a Traffic a Vehicle Regulations and Registrations System, Independent Education Funding, a Passport and Customs Service, a Social Security Service, an Armed Forces, and the list goes on.
The ballot system for the Independence Vote was even set up to advantage the Yes campaign, with the exclusion of voting rights for UK Scots not living in Scotland being allowed a voice in what will also affect them, yet allowing foreign nationals the right to vote because they are domicile in Scotland. The reduction in the voting age from 18 to 16 that will allow impressionable youngsters to vote despite the fact that the majority of them will be fiscally unaffected and unaware of the consequences a Yes vote could have them and a whole nation.
I often hear the argument of Scotland not wanting to be governed by Westminster, do you honestly think that the EU and Brussels will treat an Independent Scotland better than Westminster ? and remember that Scotland would no longer have the clout in the EU that it has as part of the UK.
I am a Scot and I am proud to be a Scot, but I am also British and I want to remain British, with all of the advantages that provides.

[super jumbe]

My old man use to say, don’t count the chicks before they hatch, this referendum is going no were, RULL BRITANIA…..

[johnboy1974]

Johnboy1974 it is great for someone to have National pride in their country and as you say the vote is about the Country and not the Party, but as the SNP are the major force behind the Yes campaign it is only natural that they will be mentioned.
So clouding the actual financial arguments against Independence by saying it is nothing to do with the SNP is reacting in exactly the way Alex Salmond (I use his name not because of the SNP but because he is a major figurehead in the Yes campaign) is reacting.
It cannot be ignored that no consideration whatsoever has been taken into account of the need and cost of Independent Services, assumptions of being allowed to use the existing UK services is crass stupidity and arrogance. There has been no proper thought given to establishing Independent Currency, Taxation and an Income and Revenue Service, a Health Service, a Traffic a Vehicle Regulations and Registrations System, Independent Education Funding, a Passport and Customs Service, a Social Security Service, an Armed Forces, and the list goes on.
The ballot system for the Independence Vote was even set up to advantage the Yes campaign, with the exclusion of voting rights for UK Scots not living in Scotland being allowed a voice in what will also affect them, yet allowing foreign nationals the right to vote because they are domicile in Scotland. The reduction in the voting age from 18 to 16 that will allow impressionable youngsters to vote despite the fact that the majority of them will be fiscally unaffected and unaware of the consequences a Yes vote could have them and a whole nation.
I often hear the argument of Scotland not wanting to be governed by Westminster, do you honestly think that the EU and Brussels will treat an Independent Scotland better than Westminster ? and remember that Scotland would no longer have the clout in the EU that it has as part of the UK.
I am a Scot and I am proud to be a Scot, but I am also British and I want to remain British, with all of the advantages that provides.

You're entitled to your opinion mate the same as me- I've never voted snp in my life I don't know if I ever will. There's plenty of campaigning going on across Scotland by leading political figures in Scotland and a joining up of forces for the common good that are all out with the snp. As for your e.u argument at this moment in time it means nothing- we don't been know yet if an independent Scotland will ask to join the e.u, this would be in the party manifestos after a yes vote and it's also not even certain that they would be accepted anyway.


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[johnboy1974]

From the financial times

"Among the blizzard of contention and spin that surrounds the independence debate, some points of broad consensus are clear. Nationalists argue that being part of the UK has held Scotland back, while their opponents contend that the union has been central to its economic success. But the leading players on both sides accept that Scotland has all the ingredients to be a viable nation state.
"If its geographic share of UK oil and gas output is taken into account, Scotland?s GDP per head is bigger than that of France. Even excluding the North Sea?s hydrocarbon bounty, per capita GDP is higher than that of Italy. Oil, whisky and a broad range of manufactured goods mean an independent Scotland would be one of the world?s top 35 exporters.
"An independent Scotland could also expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK. Although Scotland enjoys public spending well above the UK average ? a source of resentment among some in England, Wales and Northern Ireland ? the cost to the Treasury is more than outweighed by oil and gas revenues from Scottish waters."One of the favourite citations touted by the nationalist Yes Scotland campaign is a quote from a 2007 Daily Telegraph article by David Cameron, now UK prime minister, that argued there was no point in trying to keep Scotland inside the union 'through fear of the economic consequences' of leaving. 'Supporters of independence will always be able to cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies across Europe such as Finland, Switzerland and Norway,'
Mr Cameron wrote. 'It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country'.?
****ysing the Financial Times figures is both fascinating and revealing. Their calculations are shown in clear graphics, so immune to false interpretation. "This is equivalent to ?1,321 a year for every man, woman and child in the country, or ?5,812 a year for the classic 2.4 children nuclear family." Using Westminster's own data, it shows that immediately on becoming Independent all Scots will be 11% better off. That works out at around ?7 billion a year. In simple terms, this eclipses the figure of ?824 a year for every Scot as revealed by the UK Government's own GERS (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland) figures for 2011/12 published in April 2013.
Source: "Independence debate: Yes, Scotland?" by Mure Dickie and Keith Fray, Financial Times, February 2, 2014

[ifred]

If Scotland goes independent then there no coming back for 300 years so we're told!!!
With free education and Free prescriptions then all the migrant are going to head north for the benefits!
England keeps the pound to ourselves, Hadrian wall rebuilt, Scots will have to learn a new language, reduction in scroungers, Hopefully all the scotish born or named ( B liar brun CU morron etc) will be barred from parliament It will save us an effing fortune.. cool
Bye Bye thanks for the fish

PS
I give you 1 week to change your minds

[Kalipo]

*CONGUSED*

so what will people's passports say in the future if split ?

If Scotland gains independence, their current British passports will be valid until the day they expire! in theory Scottish people could use their British passports up until 2026!

The style of the passport shouldn't change because the queen would be queen of Scots. Although i expect Scotland to adopt a blue style passport!

I'm not getting involved in this debate. But i will say that i don't want Scotland to leave the union. but i do believe the Scottish should have a say.. If they do vote yes.. You go it alone.. once the doors shut, your services are yours and ours is ours!

The Eu wont subside forever.. look at greece..

[Kalipo]

My old man use to say, don’t count the chicks before they hatch, this referendum is going no were, RULL BRITANIA…..

Are you even "British"? You type Nigerian sometimes

[Meat-Head]

Are you even "British"? You type Nigerian sometimes

If you stalk sj enough you find he was imported from Bulgaria or somewhere.

john1975. When you quote people can you cut down the quite, makes thread longer than needs

[super jumbe]

Are you even "British"? You type Nigerian sometimes

You type German, related to Hitler family, should be arested for lifting your arm....

[humpty123]

im scottish and live in scotland and voting no because if yes get in scotland will sink we dont have the finances , tax will go up free perscription will be scrapped food prices will go up as farmers wont get eu sub all in all a one big mees

[Meat-Head]

im scottish and live in scotland and voting no mees

Good on you, your be screwed if you was unable to post on DK.

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[Mjolinor]

ON TOPIC:-

So if its a yes then who will be prime minister in Scotland ?

I don't think they got that far on their own. It will be Clan Chief Mc XXXXX, the one with the biggest stick.