The EU: Should we stay ? or should we go?

[Meat-Head]

Well if we need to stay could admin rewrite the rules to something like:-

Any import convicted of a "crime" excluding riding bike without lights and 3 point turn in one way street, is automatically sent on the next boat to their orginal country, taking their family with them, no ifs no buts.

eg sven lived here 25 years, from Poland, married to greetle from Sweden two brats, caught with fingers in till at work, no appeal all of them deported to Poland (its empty any way)

[rds60h]

By how much? We can for example compare what it cost for us now in duty/import taxes from the US or Asia. Could you tell me the US and China don't pay, or if so how much?



Which particular regulations?




By how much?



Don't care, all politicians are the same.



How much a year was that when we last traded, so we can compare?

[

Can you give a real example and cost?



How much is that specifically costing us?



How much is that costing us, and how much are the other countries paying UK citizens abroad, so it can be compared?

While I realise it's easy to say leaving will save money, but unless you know by how much etc, how do you know it will? The people backing the leave campaign so far are only dong so in their own interests, which are very unlikely to be for the benefit of Joe Public.

1) You cannot quantify the cost or saving of tariffs until you know which tariffs have been imposed, but because we buy more from the EU than we sell there the cost of equally imposed tariffs would have more effect on the EU trade than ours.

2) The Treaty of Rome and the Common Fisheries Policy is full of rules and restrictions, such as the size and number of boats, limitation of Fleets, number of days allowed to stay at, sea areas that can be fished, quota of catch, size and species of fish allowed (despite the fact that once netted the majority of the fish to be returned are dead or dying).
Agriculture is affected by size, shape and labelling constraints, market access restrictions, milk quotas (which suddenly been announced will be lifted.......Britain being one of the few countries who had adhered to the restrictions), plant protection restrictions, restricted farming conditions (such as hill farming), Greening restrictions on Tillage (Crop Rotation), turf cutting restrictions, and on and, on. Also there is the fact that the Agricultural Monetary Contributions are much greater than subsidies given to the UK and so we are paying to put British farmers out of work. These is also the EU CAP programme which has huge ratifications and restriction on British Farmers because it deals with subsidies and import/export restrictions and subsidised surplus dumping on world markets outside the EU designed to artificially increase prices in the EU (So you pay twice because you pay for the subsidy and then your pay for the increased price to purchase the goods.

3) We receive a 66% return of our payment to the EU, so a saving in the region of ?3 Billion a year.

4) You might not care because all politicians are the same, but MEPs wages and expenses are still a financial burden that would be reduced by leaving the EU.

5) We traded within the Commonwealth so long ago and under completely different conditions and commodities that you could not compare fairly under modern standards of trade.

6) The Health Service, we have a free Health Service, GPs and Hospitals whereas in most of the European countries you have to pay for (usually with Health Insurance for those that can afford it) Doctors visits and Hospital Attendance and Operations etc.
Under the "Reciprocal Agreement" Brits in Europe pay for treatment whereas those from the EU in Britain pay nothing, Education is the same and then there is the Benefits System, where benefit payments far exceed most European Countries so we MUST PAY European in Britain the same as we pay British people but if the Brits are in the other European Countries they only get paid that European Country's rate which is far below our payment.
Take Poland as an example, no housing benefit is paid, under certain circumstances means tested Unemployment Insurance is paid for 12 months, those not eligible can claim Social Assistance as a last resort, Family Benefits are means tested. To be eligible you must have worked for a minimum of 180 day in the last 12 months.
The Unemployment Insurance pays 36% of the Average Polish Wage, which is 48,000 Zolte a year (?8443 pa) and that equates to 17,280 Zolte per year (?3039).
Social Assistance is paid at 28% of the Average Polish Wage, so 13,440 Zolte a year (?2364 pa)
This means that it is possible for a Polish family in Britain to claim (including housing benefit) in a month, the equivalent of what they would be entitled to claim back home, and what would be paid to a Brit living in Poland.
I don't know about you, but I can't see anything "Reciprocal" about those figures.

7) Impossible to quantify because we have no real idea of the number of migrants here anymore, but if you do not have to pay for housing, education, health treatment, benefits, and extra policing (this I have added because it has been proven that there are organised teams of East European pick pockets, shop lifters, metal thieves and ATM scammers working throughout Britain). But just a reduction of 1% of migrants living here represents a saving no matter how it is looked at.

8) You keep asking specifics, until it has occurred there can be no specifics, but common sense and basic mathematics tells you that if you have less people to pay for then you are making a saving.
Figures available on the cost of Health and Education cannot be relied on because of the vast discrepancies that can be shown, such as the Aviva "official" cost ratings of ?22,500 to put 1 child through a state education (excluding extras borne by parents) whereas the Audit for Scotland show the average annual school spend per child is ?5,468. Which when multiplied by the number of years spent at school (that would vary between 9 and 12 years) would be well in excess of ?22,500 in fact going by another figure revealed in the Audit for Scotland, could be as high as ?81,552.
The Audit of Scotland showed that school spend per child varied widely, particularly in rural areas for example Clackmannanshire ?4,433 pa whereas in Argyle and Bute it was ?6796
So which figure would you use ?
The Parliamentary figures of NHS cost per capita based on ONS statistics is ?1,652 per annum, yet the BBC who also based their figures on ONS statistics quoted ?277 per person per annum.
The NHS Confederation quotes the cost per capita as ?1,912, yet the Daily Mail (yes I know !) states ?970 per person per year.
However, the estimated cost to the NHS of treating a Cancer patient is ?30,000.
So again what figures do you work from ?

The people backing the Stay in Europe are the huge Multi Nationals and the Tax Dodgers, not the ordinary Joe Public.
That is because they know that it is not them that will financially gain from withdrawal, but Joe Public who will have a few pounds more in their pocket.

[Meat-Head]

QUITE GASTON J. "See this thread ending badly "

agree mate

[rds60h]

QUITE GASTON J. "See this thread ending badly "

agree mate

Don't see why; Gaston J and I are only sounding our opinions, the point that they are opposite opinions does not mean either of us are volatile or are going to be vitriolic towards each other.
I prefer to believe that it is healthy discussion with a chance to see the other side of an argument from a slightly different angle, which may or may not make one or the other of us accept or change our minds about a particular point.

[Meat-Head]

No problem

[GastonJ]

Thanks for the reply rds60h - at least you are informing yourself of the options you are looking at. I have no problem with debating teh good and bad points of staying/leaving the EU and will continue to do so. Though I dare say the true facts and figures are probably well hidden from us all. I am still waiting for Nigel to reply to my twitter message, but he appears unable to - perhaps doesn't want to be nailed down to facts, rather than the generalisations that most come out with.

Some people in this thread, such as those calling for reform on the freedom of movement don't actually understand what they're asking for or even the implications of what they are asking for. As for those all up for kicking out radical extremists I don't think they have a clue what they're asking for, since those extremists they're talking about are probably from the middle east, which is nothing to do with freedom of movement within Europe. As has already been proved, quite recently, you can kick out middle eastern extremists. It was proved a long ago that you can stop EU extremists coming to the UK.

The government needs to try harder to carry out it's job, rather than trying to make headlines by not doing it's job and then not telling the truth and hiding behind lame excuses that are untrue.

Oh look, from Holland - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7882953.stm

So it can be done without leaving the EU, weird eh.....

[Kalipo]

Magyarorsz?gon a lakoss?g nagy r?sze szeretn? elhagyni az EU . Van egy hatalmas be?raml? nem uni?s ?llampolg?rok , amelyek el?rasztj?k a v?rosokban. Elviszik fel t?megesen munkahelyek rov?s?ra a helyiek , akik m?r nem tudnak munkahelyeket . ?s ha tudnak ők nagyon alacsony fizet?ssel ! ?s ez nem az EU ?llampolg?rai j?n!

Magyarorsz?gon kellett volna vezetnie az eur?t a 2007/2008 ?s 2010-ben ism?t , de nem tudta felel meg a maastrichti krit?riumokat.

Mivel a t?lzottan magas k?lts?gvet?si hi?ny , az infl?ci? ?s az ?llamad?ss?g .

Igaz, a probl?m?k r?mutattunk ?n ink?bb a brit elhagyni , ?s ?jra l?tre ez linkeket a vil?g t?bbi r?sze .

A fenti pontok egy orsz?g ?s egy orsz?g csak . Van m?g sok m?s probl?ma az EU-ban , amely tolja ?t engem . Nem tudjuk megoldani a vil?gban, de tudunk dolgozni , mint az egy?nek ?s seg?t m?soknak el?rni .

--------------------

In Hungary, the majority of the population want to leave the EU. There is a massive influx of non EU nationionals which are flooding towns and cities. They're taking up masses of jobs at the expense of the locals who already can't get jobs. and if they can they are very low paid! and that is without the EU nationals coming!

Hungary was supposed to adopt the Euro in 2007/2008 and again in 2010 but it could not meet any of the Maastricht criteria.

Because of excessively high budget deficit, inflation, and public debt.

That said, with the problems pointed out above i would rather the UK leave and re establish it's links to the rest of the world.

The above points are one country and one country only. There is many more problems within the EU which push me over. We can't fix the world but we can work as individuals and help others to achieve.

[jokas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfRfKnDbMms

GOOD MORNING
Please see this video (not telling the Greeks)

DECIDE !!

[rds60h]

GastonJ, I agree with what you have said there and I would not say that anyone is wrong in their own stance because everyone will see things from a different perspective.
I will even go as far as to say there are some good points to membership of the EU, but in my opinion the bad points outweigh the good points which from reading some of your posts you would agree about some of the bad points and whereas I perceive more bad points you perceive more good points.
This will be because we both have different knowledge and understanding about different areas of EU membership and irrespective of either of our views EU membership affects different people in different ways which means that whether IN or OUT some will gain and some will lose as neither situation will be right for everyone

[nara]

... EU membership affects different people in different ways which means that whether IN or OUT some will gain and some will lose as neither situation will be right for everyone

Good point, and it cuts through a lot of the crap!

Overall, the rich would be richer and the poor would be poorer. The ones in the middle would muddle on as usual with some benefits and some deficits.

[GastonJ]

One other point that hasn't been answered yet is, what if the vote is to leave and Scotland! Wales or Northern Ireland don't want to leave ? Not like England can leave without them, nor can England decide that they will all leave, more so if the votes in those countries show a high percentage not wanting to leave ? At that point will there be a vote on whether England represents the UK overriding the wishes of the rest of the UK, if not should England leave the UK ?

Answers on a postcard to Dave

[Meat-Head]

Answers on a postcard to Dave

Great post, think Dave is keeping a low profile, Arnold Rimmer MP has invited him for tea and cakes, so he will proberbly hiding at home, but ignoring tweets faxes and emails

[GastonJ]

Dave is hoping, like all Tory tw@'s, that it will deflect attention from his party's pathetic policies and no-one will notice them. Even if by leaving it saved ?20 billion a year, do you think it would be used for the benefit of joe public or for increased mp's expenses ?

Funny how newspapers have forgotten mp's pay rises of late eh?

[Meat-Head]

OFF TOPIC:-

With governments councils are set a budget for each deptment:-

If one year the paper clip dept. are given ?5000 but only spend ?1000 that year, they get a less budget next year.

So on face value budget cuts good idea

[busaman]

Thanks for the reply rds60h - at least you are informing yourself of the options you are looking at. I have no problem with debating teh good and bad points of staying/leaving the EU and will continue to do so. Though I dare say the true facts and figures are probably well hidden from us all. I am still waiting for Nigel to reply to my twitter message, but he appears unable to - perhaps doesn't want to be nailed down to facts, rather than the generalisations that most come out with.

Some people in this thread, such as those calling for reform on the freedom of movement don't actually understand what they're asking for or even the implications of what they are asking for. As for those all up for kicking out radical extremists I don't think they have a clue what they're asking for, since those extremists they're talking about are probably from the middle east, which is nothing to do with freedom of movement within Europe. As has already been proved, quite recently, you can kick out middle eastern extremists. It was proved a long ago that you can stop EU extremists coming to the UK.

.

it is still part of the problem we CAN NOT actually control who comes and who doesn't they always hide behind some European human rights law which we are powerless to do anything about, agreed most radicals/terrorists are from the middle east you have to ask the question WHY would they want to come HERE!! not for the nice weather, and once they get here usually through the lax European borders there harder to extract than a twisted wisdom tooth.

and allowed to preach their hate of the west and freedom(which is our way) with the police and government pretty much powerless to act. under the guise of European rights of speech laws.

i was talking to a farmer this week who had to plough in his crop of strawberry's last year because he could not compete with European importers (it costs us more to produce than the rest of Europe)

but guess what they paid him for an empty field this year the fact is Europe is out of control with regulations there are good points but many many bad ones.