Prepare for fuel shortages: union warns of blockades

[chroma]

I haven't looked at the water option, but simple physics says you need a hellova a lot of energy to break down water into Hydrogen and Oxygen.
Not saying it cannot be done.. but you need energy to do it! ispso fatso... the energy needed will be taxed.
Methane now thats a different story.. can bottle that by just standing outside Gmb's hoose.

2000 degrees celsius or thereabouts to break H?O covalent bonds down to wind up with 2x H?O >> H? and O?

Engine blocks don't like 2000c, not much does.

So Thermolysis is pretty much out the window.

Electrolysis takes a fair amount of energy to smash the covalent bonds too, water needs to be less than pure (pure water is self ionising so it takes a LOT more energy to pass a current through)
you need to use expensive metals like platinum too in order to achieve usable results, Hydrogen is Positively charged, oxygen is negatively charged (water molecules actualy arrange themselves like compass needles) this means that the atoms can be collected at the correspondingly charged electrodes.

Hydrogen production here isn't exactly efficient though, on paper one oxygen atom with two hydrogen atoms bonded to it should smash into 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen, this doesn't always happen and yields do vary, not to mention that because your not using pure water deposits also collect at the anodes and cathodes reducing efficiency further and causing the need to replace the expensive platinum bits...

Hydrogen powered cars sound GREAT on paper but in realistic terms they're pretty difficult to manufacture, require a lot of energy put in to get the hydrogen (outside of producing it from hydrocarbons IE: oil) and need regular maintainance and replacement of rare heavy metals.

So to run a cheap hydrogen car most of the hydrogen would come from the very oil its trying to work around...

[super jumbe]

Hi Mates tell me more how I can save money on fuel and this is getting more interesting now and chroma what?s all this about hydrogen H?O >> H? and O? to do with the cost cutting I just can not figure out, I think I need medical help on my brain to see any immediate saving on my cash now.

[Grizz]

Making hydrogen sounds expensive so maybe you could try some of these tips from various petrol saving webpages, maybe people can add a few more....

1 Correct pressure in your tyres
2 Slow down
3 Close your windows
4 Dont use aircon if you have it
5 Share a drive to work if you can.
6 turn off your car if you have to idle for long periods
7 Dont use lights when unnecessary
8 Combine trips, less short trips from cold.
9 Get rid of all unnecessary weight in the car.
10 Get rid of the roof rack if you have one
11 Use cruise control or maintain a constant speed if possible
12 Avoid braking when unnecessary.
13 Make sure you have correct petrol cap (and tightened), it evaporates
14 plan your journey-sometimes longer mileage is better than lots of traffic stops
15 use narrower tyres if possible, less friction-less petrol
16 new air filter and oil when due
17 less aggressive driving

[GastonJ]

My suggestion on the government taxing water wasn't to be taken literally, it was emphasizing the fact that no matter what you put in your tank the government will tax it. If you check they will tax cooking oil as well, and expect you to tell them.... quote form HMRC site

"Important Note: It is illegal to run your car on any fuel substitute without having first paid us the duty."

HM Revenue & Customs

Shovel sh1t into your tank and they will expect and extract duty from you. At the end of the day the government want your cash, only way not to pay it is not to use your car, or elect a government that won't tax the motorist to death......... yeah some hope of that.

Think of it this way "The government knows you want it, knows you need it and wants it's cut not matter what you do, like it or lump it, you'll pay the price they want"

Me, I'm going to use it all before the Americans get chance

[Canker_Canison]

2000 degrees celsius or thereabouts to break H?O covalent bonds down to wind up with 2x H?O >> H? and O?

Engine blocks don't like 2000c, not much does.

So Thermolysis is pretty much out the window.

Electrolysis takes a fair amount of energy to smash the covalent bonds too, water needs to be less than pure (pure water is self ionising so it takes a LOT more energy to pass a current through)
you need to use expensive metals like platinum too in order to achieve usable results, Hydrogen is Positively charged, oxygen is negatively charged (water molecules actualy arrange themselves like compass needles) this means that the atoms can be collected at the correspondingly charged electrodes.

Hydrogen production here isn't exactly efficient though, on paper one oxygen atom with two hydrogen atoms bonded to it should smash into 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen, this doesn't always happen and yields do vary, not to mention that because your not using pure water deposits also collect at the anodes and cathodes reducing efficiency further and causing the need to replace the expensive platinum bits...

Hydrogen powered cars sound GREAT on paper but in realistic terms they're pretty difficult to manufacture, require a lot of energy put in to get the hydrogen (outside of producing it from hydrocarbons IE: oil) and need regular maintainance and replacement of rare heavy metals.

So to run a cheap hydrogen car most of the hydrogen would come from the very oil its trying to work around...

There is a far easier way to produce hydrogen from water. But I'm not sure on what it's called & a friend might hurt me if I say to much.

But here's what I know....

There's a powder that can be bought in the UK without a special license or breaking drug laws. When added to water it acts as a catalyst, releasing the hydrogen & oxygen. The afore mentioned friend was working on a system to retro-fit a hydrogen system into any road vehicle.
Water goes into a tank & the powder/crystals added, the system then runs pressured & is fed into the air intake. Fuel is lowered through re-mapping the ECU. In tests this gave about a 5% increase in power & 50% more economy. Any powder/crystals not used stays in the bottom of the water tank.
The problems he had were with reliability in manufacture. He took identical cars & fitted the system. One car would work, the other wouldn't. But there's still some work being carried out so you might see it in the future.

[chroma]

There is a far easier way to produce hydrogen from water. But I'm not sure on what it's called & a friend might hurt me if I say to much.

But here's what I know....

There's a powder that can be bought in the UK without a special license or breaking drug laws. When added to water it acts as a catalyst, releasing the hydrogen & oxygen. The afore mentioned friend was working on a system to retro-fit a hydrogen system into any road vehicle.
Water goes into a tank & the powder/crystals added, the system then runs pressured & is fed into the air intake. Fuel is lowered through re-mapping the ECU. In tests this gave about a 5% increase in power & 50% more economy. Any powder/crystals not used stays in the bottom of the water tank.
The problems he had were with reliability in manufacture. He took identical cars & fitted the system. One car would work, the other wouldn't. But there's still some work being carried out so you might see it in the future.

Sounded like Aluminium initially there but crystalline suggests sodium borohydride, possibly with peroxide or chlorine as an oxidizer. Yields are fairly low from chemical processes, but i figure you could use heat as a catalyst by wrapping the exhaust manifold around the tank to up the temp and gain a couple of extra percent.

The major downside is you need to use up chemicals along with water in order to produce any hydrogen, this could wind up getting expensive. Especially in the case of aluminates which are fairly expensive to begin with but have a far better chemical cycle.

[Canker_Canison]

I don't know all the chemical shit for this. But he did say the powder/crystals used were quite cheap. If I remember I'll ask him next time we talk.

[super jumbe]

I am a bit going blare and confused it now sounds we are now experimenting how we can make a rocket to take us beyond our galaxy and all this has nothing to do with saving on petrol.

[chroma]

Not easily, there's a shitload of math involved and im talking fairly advanced stuff, you really want me to go into it?

The actual rocket is fairly straightforward, its the trajectory plotting that gets pretty hardcore.

[bub]

Forget water run cars, cars that run on compressed air have been invented a few years ago. Just fill up the compressed tank with air and away you go. The government though will never allow them.
MDI Enterprises S.A. - Air compressed cars - Flowair - Clean cars - Sustainable technology.

[super jumbe]

Read this as I believe we do not have any more fuel left mates, the price of gas is going up, up and away. With political tensions rising in the Middle East and South America, hurricanes battering our Gulf Coast oil refineries and demand for oil skyrocketing in developing nations like China and India, there?s no telling how high gas/petrol prices will climb. Some experts are predicting that prices could rise as high as ?6, ?7 or even ?8 per gallon! Needless to say, this takes a big bite out of your monthly budget, wages are frozen, cost of living rocketed, our futcher in balance, for f*ck sake get the horses and donkeys out on road before it?s to let.

[xant14]

Some experts are predicting that prices could rise as high as ?6, ?7 or even ?8 per gallon!

It is already 6 quid a gallon. ?1.32 per litre is ?6 per gallon.
Someone reported a London garage selling at ?1.54, that is near as damn it, ?7.00 a gallon.

[DJSimo]

My suggestion on the government taxing water wasn't to be taken literally, it was emphasizing the fact that no matter what you put in your tank the government will tax it. If you check they will tax cooking oil as well, and expect you to tell them.... quote form HMRC site

"Important Note: It is illegal to run your car on any fuel substitute without having first paid us the duty."

HM Revenue & Customs

Shovel sh1t into your tank and they will expect and extract duty from you. At the end of the day the government want your cash, only way not to pay it is not to use your car, or elect a government that won't tax the motorist to death......... yeah some hope of that.

Think of it this way "The government knows you want it, knows you need it and wants it's cut not matter what you do, like it or lump it, you'll pay the price they want"

Me, I'm going to use it all before the Americans get chance

Its not just the goverment, I used to use Pure Vegetable Oil to run my 4x4 used to cost about 40-45p a litre from supermarket, but as soon as the greedy supermarkets realised a lot of sales were for Motor Vehicles the price rose to about 70-80p and now inline with more expensive diesel it is up to ?1:10 a litre today, Thats more than a 50% rise in 4years, considering inflation is about 3.7% per year, it should only have gone up by 16%.

[Grizz]

Its not just the goverment, I used to use Pure Vegetable Oil to run my 4x4 used to cost about 40-45p a litre from supermarket, but as soon as the greedy supermarkets realised a lot of sales were for Motor Vehicles the price rose to about 70-80p and now inline with more expensive diesel it is up to ?1:10 a litre today, Thats more than a 50% rise in 4years, considering inflation is about 3.7% per year, it should only have gone up by 16%.

i notice the same thing, i was running on a mix of rapeseed oil from tesco for a while and then tesco jacked up the price until it matched diesel and became uneconomical. greedy ~~~~ers