British scientists 'invent artificial petrol'...

[racin-snake]

more to the point why is no one running serious testing on these Tesla and Bedini generators ?

got to be some gain ?

also you have completely missed the point with most of the post
it was a rhetorical idea as to why no one bothers to research this stuff and why is it cut in its tracks before it gets noticed ?

to be honest ime not advocating that this stuff that's now available actually could run a city but why not investigate the claims ?
if you search more you see that not all the info is to advertise and mostly the stuff that is cannot be funded by any other means due to restrictions

but always remember minds like parachutes only work 100% when they are fully open


take more of a open minded approach mate before you attempt debunking everything i write please !!

and if you did look the storage problem is sorted due to the fact it doesnt need to store hydrogen it makes it as its used ?
so therefore no need for storage
the cell can produce a good volume of hydrogen as its needed and if more research was put into this then cell technology and efficiency would get better cells more eficient use less current ect ect

have a good look at what some independents are working on like h202 ect
also have a look on youtube at hydrogen cells its interesting ..

[chroma]

another interesting thought on this, if they used sea water to make the hydrogen, it could also be an answer to the rising water levels due to the polar ice caps melting

Salt is Sodium Chloride.
Hydrogen (and oxygen) are produced when two plates are submersed in water and current is passed between them.

When sodium chloride is present then you get Chlorine gas as a byproduct. It's very nasty stuff, as is Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda / lye)
Both compounds are pretty bad, the sodium hydroxide will only screw up your plates over time, the gas however will kill you.

Even tap water is treated with bleach (Sodium Hypoclorite) and raw Chlorine, which when undergoing electrolysis gives off chlorine gas.
Tap water also has other nasties involved like algicides, clarifying agents, fluoride, hardening and softening agents (these are region dependant and used in respect to the initial PH balance of the reservoirs)
Flocculation agents like Aluminium sulphate and the like.
Theres a LOT going on in tap water making it fairly useless for safe home brew electrolysis.

As for Tesla and Bedini generators? they're pipe dreams, Anyone who claims to have overcome the first law of thermodynamics is a lunatic, the claims are on par with the same con artists who proclaim to have worked out perpetual motion.

Even hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, you draw 30 amps into a wet cell and 18 in an efficient dry cell to produce HHO to any usable scale.
It takes more electricity to produce than you net at the end, as there's wastage from heat, friction and sound. (again back to the basic 1st law of thermodynamics)

Separation of Hydrogen from Oxygen is also fairly involved and to do it right uses up more chemicals and produces waste.
Separation at the anode and cathodes is imperfect and you wind up with a tank full of hydrogen and a little oxygen, it takes a lightning hit or gets a spark and it will cause a sizeable explosion.
Refrigeration isn't an option for a home user either, pressurising and cooling to -183c to siphon off the liquid oxygen is far from a simple procedure inside a lab let alone outside.

Then there's long term environmental impacts that often get sidestepped, if everyone and their dog is producing hydrogen and dumping the waste oxygen into the atmosphere the atmospheric conditions would suffer, a spike from 21% to even 22% oxygen in the air would have very serious impacts. Oxygen is a fairly nasty corrosive gas, this never gets due consideration when hydrogen is seen as the saviour of our energy problems though, the same way emissions never got a look in at the early stages of oil production.

[racin-snake]

you know the science ...but
the production in wet cells still burns even though its not pure hydrogen ..yes ?
mixed with air from the atmosphere it burns well and hydrogen producing cells have an do run vehicles don't they ?

at the moment there is a very small effort to perfect a valid cell

all of which i have more faith than the science you quote for a better more efficient use for the technology
also car manufacturers are using over run technology to reclaim energy lost in braking and deceleration as we speak
better more efficient methods are being sought at the moment
combine electric and hydrogen fuel cells together with reclamation and better generators on cars alone would make some good impact
most of the time the science is hampered but as for Tesla and Bedini the scientific doors are not shut yet on the validity of these for using as efficient generation of power

i also think your examples of current needed to produce usable amounts hydrogen is a bit out of date ..but i await correction


all the motives are there to try ..just not the cash or effort to develop these
much worse gasses are produced with fossil fuels than these could ; take coal for example ?

the point being if we rest on the laurels we get no further forward
and many scientific ideas are being bent and in a constant flux all the time my hope is for cleaner and easier fuel there are very few other alternatives ..but most importantly none of these are as polluting than the current fuels we use

my opinion but IMHO a valid one staying with petrol is a means to an end but due to the economic state the options are not just impeded but slammed shut in our face ! its our duty to seek an alternative method of not just cheaper energy but to save the use of what is available
even a reduction of the actual dependence is a real milestone wouldn't you agree ?

a new petrol could be all well but your theory on its use and after effects will still be a constant afterthought
of carcinogens and environmental impact both valid factors for using unproven products
but in all this ime not looking to get anything for nothing but thermodynamics doesn't take into account the abundance of the fuel used to power the machine its running ?
it just can determine the efficiency of the machine or type of fuel
if the fuel is abundant and cheap then thermodynamics is just a factor not a huge setback ?
another type of use for Teslas work is solar radiation could be combined too
all valid and take the emphasis off the fossil fuel dependency

[thered]

and if you did look the storage problem is sorted due to the fact it doesnt need to store hydrogen it makes it as its used ?
so therefore no need for storage

it doesnt because it doesnt work

if you are convinced you pay the ?40 for the instructions and build it


everything is not a conspiracy if you could make energy as easily as claimed we wouldnt be mining coal and burning gas and talking about more nuclear power stations and building off shore wind farms


lets look at magic boxes hypothetically

the energy companies use inefficient ways to produce electric they would welcome free electric i am very sure as would the government

whether or not we would all be allowed to leave the grid is a different matter and make our own at home because the country would lose vital revenue in taxes and jobs

but on the other hand it would create many jobs making these magic machines for our homes offices and new builds something the energy sector themselves could make to appease the losses ( a new market)

the government would still get the same tax regardless they would put it on something else like they always have done

energy companies would only lose long term if we all made electric at home ourselves and they were not involved

if the government however made us stay on the grid which they would probably do citing "health and safety" or some other reason like it has to be installed outside and the external box and wiring is the "energy companies" and need to be paid for each month in rent but who would complain really if we had to just pay say ?20 a month to them instead of ?120

the energy companies would not lose out because whilst we would be paying a tiny amount of money to them compared to now but they would not have the grid to maintain and power stations to fuel with massive amounts of fossil fuels their outlays would be minimal as these magic foolproof boxes produce it free that ?20 is pure profit from every home in britain without works offices ect

thus enabling us to spend more money on shopping because our utilty bills are lower thus making the country and government more money in vat ect enabling the country to live a little better

now hypothetically if we have around 13 million homes in uk and the energy companies charge ?20 a month for magic boxes

this equates to over ?3 billion pure profit every year

This is without works,shopping centres office blocks who would pay surely more money still ?10 billion profit a year is easily achievable at massive savings to everyone

and once everyone has a magic box apart from a bit of maintenance it is all free you dont have to spend millions shipping coal and building power stations

this is all hypothetical as i am pretty sure these magic boxes do not exist but after reading this can you tell me why any government or energy company would not want free energy it is pretty naive to suggest it is all a plot

[Tryst]

How many of you think for one minute that Shell, BP and the other oil companies will allow this fuel to go on sale?

In the past, other oil fuel alternatives have been created but the big oil companies buy up the idea and bin it so they can keep selling their oil.

The only way these ideas will ever see the light of day is when the oil dries up and the oil companies can use the idea to maintain their market.

[thered]

How many of you think for one minute that Shell, BP and the other oil companies will allow this fuel to go on sale?

In the past, other oil fuel alternatives have been created but the big oil companies buy up the idea and bin it so they can keep selling their oil.

yes im sure they have and you have seen them all too do you have the paperwork?

oil companies are really stupid they would rather pay billions and billions every year to drill in dangerous areas than use these magic patented inventions that make fuel for virtually nothing

The only way these ideas will ever see the light of day is when the oil dries up and the oil companies can use the idea to maintain their market.

yes what a good idea then when the oil runs out they will wheel all these inventions out and charge us for using them to maintain the market

so they use oil now to maintain the market then when it runs out they use these new inventions to maintain the market? which equals the same thing they still have the market without the oil

why dont they just use them now then ?

i wonder

[racin-snake]

if your so adamant these other methods wont work then why not have a good look and then look at why no development in these areas is outside the public sector ?
wind farms and sea for clean reusable energy has also been mainly operated and funded by the public sector
magic boxes ...are you that nieve or is this a new way of taunting?
the best and most productive way is to have a look around you and actually see the stuff that's available and ask why its not being investigated

you seem to forget things thought impossible are now being done
also solar and cosmic radiation are these a load of tosh too?
just because some college lecturer told you years ago that's pure fact ?
ime afraid many new inventions you have in your home right now were impossible when you were at college
lithium ion for instance ? look at the advances in cell phone technology for instance ?
are they now not more efficient ?
and less weight with more functions ?
then you see engineering progression that can also be applied to other things than your entertainment ?


and a few other more efficient semi conductors have been released thought impossible to many just a year or so

your argument is based purely on ignorance ime afraid as usual the one googled sentence without removing the blinkers is the result of your findings ?

its a shame as so many minds are shut tighter than a ducks arse it amazes me that lateral thinking got beyond the 18th century

so many ideas left stagnant cos the people are blinded by ignorance or just too pre occupied to bother looking
no matter your input is just as it sounds
IGNORANCE

as for the quote you pasted ..if you go have a look at the modern wet cell hydrogen technology and investigate the claims (for a change )
you will see that hydrogen produced can equate to running an internal combustion engine
while not exactly free its a good bit cheaper and efficient than what we are using at the moment ?
just to end
you are really the nieve one if you think governments and so on are acting in our best interest ...i need say no more on that one

go have a look come back with an actual conceived perception of the methods and actual findings
and where did you see the the instructions for this 40 quid device mate
yea in the first bit of litrature your mid wandered to
as ide modify your sums a bit these companies huge energy conglomerates dont count in millions ...
try adding a b and remove the m ....

[thered]

if your so adamant these other methods wont work then why not have a good look and then look at why no development in these areas is outside the public sector ?
wind farms and sea for clean reusable energy has also been mainly operated and funded by the public sector
magic boxes ...are you that nieve or is this a new way of taunting?
the best and most productive way is to have a look around you and actually see the stuff that's available and ask why its not being investigated

you seem to forget things thought impossible are now being done
also solar and cosmic radiation are these a load of tosh too?
just because some college lecturer told you years ago that's pure fact ?
ime afraid many new inventions you have in your home right now were impossible when you were at college
lithium ion for instance ? look at the advances in cell phone technology for instance ?
are they now not more efficient ?
and less weight with more functions ?
then you see engineering progression that can also be applied to other things than your entertainment ?


and a few other more efficient semi conductors have been released thought impossible to many just a year or so

your argument is based purely on ignorance ime afraid as usual the one googled sentence without removing the blinkers is the result of your findings ?

its a shame as so many minds are shut tighter than a ducks arse it amazes me that lateral thinking got beyond the 18th century

so many ideas left stagnant cos the people are blinded by ignorance or just too pre occupied to bother looking
no matter your input is just as it sounds
IGNORANCE

as for the quote you pasted ..if you go have a look at the modern wet cell hydrogen technology and investigate the claims (for a change )
you will see that hydrogen produced can equate to running an internal combustion engine
while not exactly free its a good bit cheaper and efficient than what we are using at the moment ?
just to end
you are really the nieve one if you think governments and so on are acting in our best interest ...i need say no more on that one

go have a look come back with an actual conceived perception of the methods and actual findings
and where did you see the the instructions for this 40 quid device mate
yea in the first bit of litrature your mid wandered to
as ide modify your sums a bit these companies huge energy conglomerates dont count in millions ...
try adding a b and remove the m ....

i did if you read

your notions are mainly what you percieve by reading between lines i am not saying that things will not be possible in the future i hope that alternatives do come out

the government will get money no matter what new fuel comes out as will the oil companies as they will have the money and the infrastructure to put it all into practice and keep control

the fact is these cells do not work unless they are fed by electric which is made mainly through fossil fuels which isnt very efficient and is not doing what it is supposed to do save fossil fuel

a lithium battery will not power the world in fact its just a bit better than a normal one

any company in buisiness wants to buy things for the smallest profit and sell for as much as they can

big oil companies will want any technology they can to create new fuel if they can find fuel easily made and cheaper than oil they would discard oil in a second as would any company you move with the times


all these notions about holding back magic fuel boxes and the electric car are pure fantasy and i do not need to read up on any of it because i am not that stupid

there is reason the electric car was never mass produced it is becuse it takes to long to charge

if true there isnt a single reason why the tesla generator wouldnt be produced the energy companies and government would still make money sorry billions

but its not and at the minute fossil fuel or nuclear is the only way to generate enough power to our homes and to make enough hydrogen to pwer anything

dress it up get all theoritical tell me to look all over the net doesnt change any of the facts

[racin-snake]

yup ignorance will prevail

lithium ion as mentioned is a more efficient way to STORE electricity mate
not run the world ...ffs thats ludicrous even coming from you !

the point is the status quo of energy production is based monetarily
not with the thinkers but the bankers ....
realise this and your nearly there
also i did not say make free electricity but in fact cheaper cleaner alternatives
and ime afraid you are really stubborn to the facts of hydrogen cell technology as it is now

so to be honest don't look don't ask and stay in your utopia
my reason for posting is completely opposite to yours in all ways
we first have to look and fund the investigations before coming to the conclusion you have

if "IT DO'T WORK " is good enough for you then you have said your bit
and its now there in black and white
now let the rest debate possibilities without the interruption

the oil and other natural resources are running out fast renewable energy technology should have been investigated many years ago
as its starting to now
but more fervent investigation and more funding are needed now
the whole point of moving on is to invent and refine
ime afraid that the "it don't work " theory is not in some peoples vocabulary
thank goodness or wed be still in the so called dark ages

but alas if your entertained and content to think purely of what cant be done then fine
leave the rest to investigate and look for options
maybe one day the stuff you so readily dismiss as theoretical nonsense will be keeping you comfortable in your utopia

Arthur C Clarke was thought of as a cook once now apointed the title of a visionary ...times change and technology marches on ...some peple DO some just dont ...

[thered]

yup ignorance will prevail

lithium ion as mentioned is a more efficient way to STORE electricity mate
not run the world ...ffs thats ludicrous even coming from you !

the point is the status quo of energy production is based monetarily
not with the thinkers but the bankers ....
realise this and your nearly there
also i did not say make free electricity but in fact cheaper cleaner alternatives
and ime afraid you are really stubborn to the facts of hydrogen cell technology as it is now

so to be honest don't look don't ask and stay in your utopia
my reason for posting is completely opposite to yours in all ways
we first have to look and fund the investigations before coming to the conclusion you have

if "IT DO'T WORK " is good enough for you then you have said your bit
and its now there in black and white
now let the rest debate possibilities without the interruption

the oil and other natural resources are running out fast renewable energy technology should have been investigated many years ago
as its starting to now
but more fervent investigation and more funding are needed now
the whole point of moving on is to invent and refine
ime afraid that the "it don't work " theory is not in some peoples vocabulary
thank goodness or wed be still in the so called dark ages

but alas if your entertained and content to think purely of what cant be done then fine
leave the rest to investigate and look for options
maybe one day the stuff you so readily dismiss as theoretical nonsense will be keeping you comfortable in your utopia

Arthur C Clarke was thought of as a cook once now apointed the title of a visionary ...times change and technology marches on ...

see with this i dont get what you are trying to say. i said earlier in the thread i think hydrogen fuel is the only way forward due to its abundance and us being an island ECT ECT

all i have said is that it doesnt work NOW which it doesnt 10 years on who knows? when i changed was not due to a change in thought as you seem to suggest it was in relation to your ideas that inventions like the tesla generator have been locked away so the oil companies and government can make money

that is the matter i dispute mainly because it is fantasy

whilst i do admit that both government and oil companies want to make as much money as possible ( who doesnt)

i do not buy into the foolish notion that they have the technology but they refuse to use it so they can keep selling oil

if say BP could produce a fuel cheaper than oil that is abundant and usable in cars ect

give me one reason they wouldnt use it?

after all they would be selling it the same as they sell petrol and please try and stay on topic

[racin-snake]

[QUOTE=thered;1045870]see with this i dont get what you are trying to say i said earlier in the thread i think hydrogen fuel is the only way forward due to its abundance and us being an island ECT ECT

where did i say this ?
can you please show me once where i mentioned island ?????

also it is in fact on track as its related in all ways to finding a new form of fuel and including the facts which you failed to mention i did say the benefits of fuel produced might be detrimental ..
please dont try to put words in my mouth please
also you did say that tesla generators are a fantasy ?
they are real whether or not the can be honed to work are a probability
another thing you are quite prepared to mention is maybe in the future ?
totally contradicting your statement ?
please try to keep up
as your really not good at this

[Tryst]

yes im sure they have and you have seen them all too do you have the paperwork?

oil companies are really stupid they would rather pay billions and billions every year to drill in dangerous areas than use these magic patented inventions that make fuel for virtually nothing

yes what a good idea then when the oil runs out they will wheel all these inventions out and charge us for using them to maintain the market

so they use oil now to maintain the market then when it runs out they use these new inventions to maintain the market? which equals the same thing they still have the market without the oil

why dont they just use them now then ?

i wonder

If you had paid so much for the initial work to be done plus all the survey work for new sites, would you risk it all in the hope that the world won't take preference to greener and more efficient fuel methods?

The drilling isn't the beginning, huge investments have been made in surveys and examining geological data for sites that have not even been drilled yet. Not to mention billions worth of equipment sitting in yards waiting to be deployed.

Would you buy a car to allow you to go to work and then get the bus to work every day while the car rots on the drive?

I said they bin the ideas but they probably sit on them as a future investment. Many of the ideas may not be cheaper methods of making alternative fuels but any method not taxed like oil is will be cheaper to buy, even after manufacturing costs. For example, petrol and diesel prices in the UK is more than 70% tax. Therefore, make an alternative that costs twice as much as petrol to manufacture, add 20% purchase tax (VAT over here) and it's still half the price of the stuff that comes from the garage.

Meanwhile, we get ripped off because the oil companies want their extortionate profits and the taxman wants his extortionate cut too. Governments are so eager to tax us to death that they'll even start illegal wars in countries like Iraq and Libya to maintain profits from oil.

[affinitymax]

lads this is a great idea if it works cause electric cars arnt the anwser in a few years youll see lots of them being towed of the motoways cause they cant go no place
we cant grow enough diesel
so someone with a good idea is gonna make mega bucks until the gov find out
and even if you get this hdrogen beed job to work some other arseholes gonna turn round and say we thought of it first
bye bye mega bucks and good idea in red tape
and if you dont believe me check out the man that has
www.dieselveg.com he does convesion kits to run trucks on cooking oil every time he started to get ahead gov kn ocked him back down cause they were not collecting there 65p ltr and on top of that they also went to town on the people that were using it
and it does work ive tried it

[Canker_Canison]

This has a slight relevance to this ongoing argument....

A friend has a business. One of the projects includes a new way to produce reflective road signs. It's cheaper & a lot more efficient. Can't tell you any more details than that.

Their first thought was to go for council contracts once they have it in production.
But the costs involved in production are huge, so they then looked into production outsourcing through licensing.
But in reality, once the tech is proven, they would wait for 3M to approach them & make an offer to buy the patent & full rights.

They are under no illusion that if/when 3M buy the rights... They will never put it into production. Big business would rather buy up the competition & scrap it rather than let them compete.

[acestu]

The Arabs will buy them out for a billion or so and then shut it down, so it will never happen chaps....

Cheers
Acestu