Manchester United Thread

[yasminandrio]

It looks like Welbeck is putting pen to paper and signing a new contract 42k a week, nice one great to see him signing a new long term contract!!

[andy1967]

An interesting read, even with the Morrison case still ongoing.

Don?t Treat Welbeck Like Wes? Give Him The Deal

Wes Brown was repeatedly given a hard time by Sir Alex Ferguson when it came time for contract negotiations. In October 2004 the club had offered Brown what they believed to be a reasonable deal and weren?t prepared to budge.

?We?ve made the boy an offer and he?s turned it down,? said Ferguson. ?It?s his decision. He can please himself ? there are no more talks planned that I?m aware of. If he wants to stay we would love that. But if he wants to look elsewhere that?s up to him ? there?s nothing you can do with modern-day footballers. He has changed his agent ? I don?t know why. He?s got an agent that has given him advice that I do not understand. I think the problem is with the agent, not the player.?

The following month a deal was agreed and the manager was delighted, claiming he ?couldn?t bare to lose him.? Maybe both sides were prepared to give a little and the situation was resolved. However, when the next extension came to be discussed, history repeated itself. Midway through the 2007-2008 season, the club were offering him just ?45,000 a week on a new deal. He wanted ?55,000 a week.

To give some context, in 2003, John O?Shea was offered a contract of around ?35,000. ?The one thing I don?t want is for people to say I can play anywhere,? said a 22-year-old O?Shea. ?It?s fine for this season because it?s done me the world of good but over time I want to stay in one position.?

Four years later and O?Shea had failed to nail down a place in the starting XI but certainly was a very useful utility player. He was rewarded with a contract worth around ?50,000 a week.

Back to 07-08, Gary Neville was out for the season meaning Wes was our first choice right back and with 52 appearances, played more games for us than any other player. When you consider this was the season we won the Double (with Wes missing just two league games all season and supplying the assist for our only goal in the European Cup final) it added further weight to his argument that he should be rewarded for his importance to the team. Yet the club still tried to take the piss out of him. Why? Because they thought they could.

?Players of today live in their agents? pockets,? Ferguson said two months before Wes eventually signed. ?It?s a situation which depresses me at times, it really depresses me. Wes has been with us since he was 13, but I don?t think that matters these days. Players? agents live their lives for them and if you are happy to go along with that, you get the situation you have got just now. But Wes knows this and the other players have told him. We wouldn?t have made the offer if we hadn?t had faith in him. It?s in his hands. It?s amazing really given that he has had such a good season and has had such a good run of games while Gary has been injured.?

So, because Wes had been with the club since he was 13, he should settle for any old salary whilst lesser players earned more. O?Shea was megging Figo when he signed his first big deal in 2003, skipping out on the lesser contracts most players his age who have come through the ranks sign, the kind of contract Wes will have signed at that age. This meant by 2007 they had to bump it up even further, despite the fact O?Shea hadn?t fulfilled that early promise and was used as a utility player.

Then think about how much money Rio Ferdinand was earning every week when he was banned for eight months through his own stupidity, only to then take months agreeing a new and improved contract when he returned. There was no criticism of him by the manager though.

The fans booed Rio during the 2005 pre-season friendlies and rather than agreeing with us, claiming that he was in his agent?s pocket, Sir Alex defended him. ?I?m not entirely happy with the reaction of the fans,? he said. ?Players who go on the field and hear their own fans booing them is not encouraging at all.? David Gill and Carlos Queiroz offered similar statements of support, ?You have to think about your worth,? Gill said. ?I respect him for that.?

The foreign players or the bigger names we bring in are afforded time and support whilst ridiculous sums of money are put in front of them and rejected. But the local lads, who are offered lower salaries, are expected to sign. The club means so much more to them yet the club seems to punish them for that.

?I?m a Manchester lad and would love to play for United for the rest of my career,? said Brown in 2001.

?I?ve been here since I was 13 and don?t want to be anywhere else,? he said in 2004.
?I?m a Manchester lad and Old Trafford is still the only place for me,? he said in 2007. ?I would love to see out my career at United. I?ve no intention of going elsewhere.?
?I would do anything for the club,? he said later that year. ?It is certainly hard to imagine ever playing for anyone else. Hopefully that won?t happen. I am happy here and hopefully I can stay here.?

?To be part of a team I have supported all my life is a great honour,? he said in 2008.
He didn?t start talking to clubs behind our back, he didn?t show a lack of commitment on the pitch, he just asked to be paid what he felt he deserved and was demonised by the club for it.

Some players have a ?loyalty? bonus in their contract, whereby if they don?t hand in a transfer request and don?t try and leave, they will be rewarded. What about the players who want to stay regardless? What about those who have always dreamed of playing for that club, give 100% every time they?re on the pitch and would do anything to stay forever? What is their reward? Just being offered a new contract at all, it would seem, regardless of whether it?s on a parity with those of a similar status who happen not to be local.

Danny Welbeck may be the latest player to receive the Wes Brown treatment after the club and player have failed to come to an agreement on salary. Whilst the manager insisted there were no problems last week, it is clear there is some disagreement behind the scenes. This isn?t an unusual situation where new contracts are concerned, with both sides keen to get the best deal, but I would like to see a resolution with allows Welbeck to feel valued.

It?s interesting to note that as a 5-year-old, Danny was playing football on the streets of Longsight with a 16-year-old United trainee. Who else? Wes Brown. On Markfield Avenue at No 42, with a red front door, lived the Browns. On the opposite side of the street were the Welbecks.

?We didn?t encourage it at first ? we thought Danny could get hurt,? said Brown. ?But the concern didn?t last long, to be honest. Once Danny got started, you could see he was decent. He had the skills and he could look after himself.?

Here are two Manchester lads, who will have worn their United shirts as they played on the fields, lifting their collar like Eric Cantona or trying to take players on like they were Ryan Giggs, who had achieved their dream.

?There is no better feeling for a Manc kid than scoring for United,? Welbeck said in August 2011.

?I?ve been in Manchester all my life and I?m a Manc through and through,? he said in April 2011.

?I suppose I?m just like any other normal Manc boy, really,? he said in September 2009. ?To be given the chance to play for United is a dream.?

?Scoring in front of the Stretford End is what every young boy from Manchester dreams of,? he said in November 2008 after scoring on his debut. ?I loved it. I?ve thought about it every day of my life ever since I started playing football.?

So, when you get a player who talks like this about the club, instead of rewarding them for that loyalty, it seems as though United are keener to take advantage of it.
Welbeck has reportedly been offered ?45,000 a week but is holding out for ?60,000. Danny?s agent is his cousin and will have probably taken note of the fact Chicharito has just signed a deal reportedly worth ?80,000 a week. Of course, Hernandez had a blinding first season with the club, scoring 20 goals, but the new deal was as much about keeping Real Madrid at bay as it was rewarding the player. His agent had spoken to the Spanish club and there was no way United were willing to lose this gem of a player.

However, Welbeck is ahead of Chicharito in pecking order this season, scoring 9 goals in 21 games, a strike rate of 0.43 goals per game, which rivals the 0.44 goals per game from the Mexican last season. Why should Welbeck put pen to paper on a four or five year deal which sees him earn pretty much half as much as a player he is keeping out of the team?

This is not a matter of money, rather principle. Whether it was ?45 a week or ?45,000 a week, Welbeck should be offered a deal which is in keeping with his position in the squad and comparable with those around him. If the club want him to prove himself over the course of a season, as Chicharito did, then fair enough, they can open negotiations again in the summer. But Welbeck would then have just 12 months remaining on his current deal and nobody wants us to be in that situation.

I?m not one to pander to the precious culture we see from footballers today but then I also do not agree with the club taking advantage of our local players either. They shouldn?t be expected to be paid considerably less just because they?re desperate to play for United, that is backward. Instead, let?s celebrate the fact we have local lads in the team and see to it that they are duly rewarded. Fingers crossed it will all be sorted out soon and that Welbeck?s Manchester United career goes as well as we all want it to.

[alom5]

That was a great read Andy.

Thank you.

[yasminandrio]

Very good read Andy, But we don't no all the details in these contract talks some could be getting more bonuses than others, it works in every walk of life, I do the same job in my office than everyone else but i am on a bigger basic than most of the other staff and i get paid more commision than everyone in my office, and from your wages to jump from 15k a week to 42k a week isnt bad really, I know thats football but FFS its a joke!! i look at berba and i don't want him there he gets 100k a week to sit on the bench the lazy twat, I can see where your coming from but its only half way through the season he was on loan last season so he hasn't proved him self yet although i don't want to lose him, i remember he nearly didn't go to sunderland on loan as he and his agent were asking for stupid amounts of addons! but thats football these day.

[thered]

An interesting read, even with the Morrison case still ongoing.

Don?t Treat Welbeck Like Wes? Give Him The Deal

Wes Brown was repeatedly given a hard time by Sir Alex Ferguson when it came time for contract negotiations. In October 2004 the club had offered Brown what they believed to be a reasonable deal and weren?t prepared to budge.

?We?ve made the boy an offer and he?s turned it down,? said Ferguson. ?It?s his decision. He can please himself ? there are no more talks planned that I?m aware of. If he wants to stay we would love that. But if he wants to look elsewhere that?s up to him ? there?s nothing you can do with modern-day footballers. He has changed his agent ? I don?t know why. He?s got an agent that has given him advice that I do not understand. I think the problem is with the agent, not the player.?

The following month a deal was agreed and the manager was delighted, claiming he ?couldn?t bare to lose him.? Maybe both sides were prepared to give a little and the situation was resolved. However, when the next extension came to be discussed, history repeated itself. Midway through the 2007-2008 season, the club were offering him just ?45,000 a week on a new deal. He wanted ?55,000 a week.

To give some context, in 2003, John O?Shea was offered a contract of around ?35,000. ?The one thing I don?t want is for people to say I can play anywhere,? said a 22-year-old O?Shea. ?It?s fine for this season because it?s done me the world of good but over time I want to stay in one position.?

Four years later and O?Shea had failed to nail down a place in the starting XI but certainly was a very useful utility player. He was rewarded with a contract worth around ?50,000 a week.

Back to 07-08, Gary Neville was out for the season meaning Wes was our first choice right back and with 52 appearances, played more games for us than any other player. When you consider this was the season we won the Double (with Wes missing just two league games all season and supplying the assist for our only goal in the European Cup final) it added further weight to his argument that he should be rewarded for his importance to the team. Yet the club still tried to take the piss out of him. Why? Because they thought they could.

?Players of today live in their agents? pockets,? Ferguson said two months before Wes eventually signed. ?It?s a situation which depresses me at times, it really depresses me. Wes has been with us since he was 13, but I don?t think that matters these days. Players? agents live their lives for them and if you are happy to go along with that, you get the situation you have got just now. But Wes knows this and the other players have told him. We wouldn?t have made the offer if we hadn?t had faith in him. It?s in his hands. It?s amazing really given that he has had such a good season and has had such a good run of games while Gary has been injured.?

So, because Wes had been with the club since he was 13, he should settle for any old salary whilst lesser players earned more. O?Shea was megging Figo when he signed his first big deal in 2003, skipping out on the lesser contracts most players his age who have come through the ranks sign, the kind of contract Wes will have signed at that age. This meant by 2007 they had to bump it up even further, despite the fact O?Shea hadn?t fulfilled that early promise and was used as a utility player.

Then think about how much money Rio Ferdinand was earning every week when he was banned for eight months through his own stupidity, only to then take months agreeing a new and improved contract when he returned. There was no criticism of him by the manager though.

The fans booed Rio during the 2005 pre-season friendlies and rather than agreeing with us, claiming that he was in his agent?s pocket, Sir Alex defended him. ?I?m not entirely happy with the reaction of the fans,? he said. ?Players who go on the field and hear their own fans booing them is not encouraging at all.? David Gill and Carlos Queiroz offered similar statements of support, ?You have to think about your worth,? Gill said. ?I respect him for that.?

The foreign players or the bigger names we bring in are afforded time and support whilst ridiculous sums of money are put in front of them and rejected. But the local lads, who are offered lower salaries, are expected to sign. The club means so much more to them yet the club seems to punish them for that.

?I?m a Manchester lad and would love to play for United for the rest of my career,? said Brown in 2001.

?I?ve been here since I was 13 and don?t want to be anywhere else,? he said in 2004.
?I?m a Manchester lad and Old Trafford is still the only place for me,? he said in 2007. ?I would love to see out my career at United. I?ve no intention of going elsewhere.?
?I would do anything for the club,? he said later that year. ?It is certainly hard to imagine ever playing for anyone else. Hopefully that won?t happen. I am happy here and hopefully I can stay here.?

?To be part of a team I have supported all my life is a great honour,? he said in 2008.
He didn?t start talking to clubs behind our back, he didn?t show a lack of commitment on the pitch, he just asked to be paid what he felt he deserved and was demonised by the club for it.

Some players have a ?loyalty? bonus in their contract, whereby if they don?t hand in a transfer request and don?t try and leave, they will be rewarded. What about the players who want to stay regardless? What about those who have always dreamed of playing for that club, give 100% every time they?re on the pitch and would do anything to stay forever? What is their reward? Just being offered a new contract at all, it would seem, regardless of whether it?s on a parity with those of a similar status who happen not to be local.

Danny Welbeck may be the latest player to receive the Wes Brown treatment after the club and player have failed to come to an agreement on salary. Whilst the manager insisted there were no problems last week, it is clear there is some disagreement behind the scenes. This isn?t an unusual situation where new contracts are concerned, with both sides keen to get the best deal, but I would like to see a resolution with allows Welbeck to feel valued.

It?s interesting to note that as a 5-year-old, Danny was playing football on the streets of Longsight with a 16-year-old United trainee. Who else? Wes Brown. On Markfield Avenue at No 42, with a red front door, lived the Browns. On the opposite side of the street were the Welbecks.

?We didn?t encourage it at first ? we thought Danny could get hurt,? said Brown. ?But the concern didn?t last long, to be honest. Once Danny got started, you could see he was decent. He had the skills and he could look after himself.?

Here are two Manchester lads, who will have worn their United shirts as they played on the fields, lifting their collar like Eric Cantona or trying to take players on like they were Ryan Giggs, who had achieved their dream.

?There is no better feeling for a Manc kid than scoring for United,? Welbeck said in August 2011.

?I?ve been in Manchester all my life and I?m a Manc through and through,? he said in April 2011.

?I suppose I?m just like any other normal Manc boy, really,? he said in September 2009. ?To be given the chance to play for United is a dream.?

?Scoring in front of the Stretford End is what every young boy from Manchester dreams of,? he said in November 2008 after scoring on his debut. ?I loved it. I?ve thought about it every day of my life ever since I started playing football.?

So, when you get a player who talks like this about the club, instead of rewarding them for that loyalty, it seems as though United are keener to take advantage of it.
Welbeck has reportedly been offered ?45,000 a week but is holding out for ?60,000. Danny?s agent is his cousin and will have probably taken note of the fact Chicharito has just signed a deal reportedly worth ?80,000 a week. Of course, Hernandez had a blinding first season with the club, scoring 20 goals, but the new deal was as much about keeping Real Madrid at bay as it was rewarding the player. His agent had spoken to the Spanish club and there was no way United were willing to lose this gem of a player.

However, Welbeck is ahead of Chicharito in pecking order this season, scoring 9 goals in 21 games, a strike rate of 0.43 goals per game, which rivals the 0.44 goals per game from the Mexican last season. Why should Welbeck put pen to paper on a four or five year deal which sees him earn pretty much half as much as a player he is keeping out of the team?

This is not a matter of money, rather principle. Whether it was ?45 a week or ?45,000 a week, Welbeck should be offered a deal which is in keeping with his position in the squad and comparable with those around him. If the club want him to prove himself over the course of a season, as Chicharito did, then fair enough, they can open negotiations again in the summer. But Welbeck would then have just 12 months remaining on his current deal and nobody wants us to be in that situation.

I?m not one to pander to the precious culture we see from footballers today but then I also do not agree with the club taking advantage of our local players either. They shouldn?t be expected to be paid considerably less just because they?re desperate to play for United, that is backward. Instead, let?s celebrate the fact we have local lads in the team and see to it that they are duly rewarded. Fingers crossed it will all be sorted out soon and that Welbeck?s Manchester United career goes as well as we all want it to.

I agree and disagree because i can see both sides

i am over the moon welbeck signed a new deal he has been to me our best new face this season ( i know he has played before but this is his first proper and he has come of age)

is he worth more than ?45000 no and to be honest i would be happy to play for a lot less he is young and in time his contracts will improve

giggs neville and scholes although well rewarded could have all doubled there salaries away from OT

although it may be a pi553r to see you fellow pro's on more money you need to understand that if we buy players or want to compete for signings you need to match what others are paying or near enough

you cant win anything these days with home grown you need to buy you need to offer what you can to get the players you need players already at the club or local lads will always maybe get a bum deal regarding pay compared to some

but rightly or wrongly it will always be so and you cant afford as a club to give every trainee turned first teamer ?100000 in there first season the rewards for wellbeck will come i am sure and he will want for nothing

whatever the pay packet for any player at the club it is utimately the fans who pay for it so remember that for everyones wages that goes up the glazers want more cash from tickets ect and its hard enough now

[pillapow]

What i wanna know is why did old bacongob keep knocking things over in todays press conference, Ive only seen two short different clips of it, And in both clips he knocks something over on the desk in front of him, Hmmm... Anxious? Nervous?

Going senile perhaps?

[redtide11]

What i wanna know is why did old bacongob keep knocking things over in todays press conference, Ive only seen two short different clips of it, And in both clips he knocks something over on the desk in front of him, Hmmm... Anxious? Nervous?

Going senile perhaps?

Probably s****ing himself knowing that your lot are coming up the hill, WOW thats been one hell of a hill

My wonder is what your doing watching clips of the greatest managers in history ? Are you perhaps wondering how this management business should be done or perhaps how to deal correctly with a press conference

[zee24]

One of the greatest!! not the greatest, maybe for Utd but not overall

[redtide11]

One of the greatest!! not the greatest, maybe for Utd but not overall

thats one you could start a new thread on and never reach an agreement as long as we all have holes in our arses

I would say to the poster pillapow that your guys face is not so disimilar to packet of danish in itself or even a slab of that tinned corn beef

[Walkinmyshadow]

One of the greatest!! not the greatest, maybe for Utd but not overall

The Greatest m8.. overall... no other Manager has maintained the success he has had for 40 odd years.
He has built winning side after winning side for decades.
Yes some managers will come and go, winning leagues, european cups etc,
but they bow-out/sacked after a few years when their ideas dry up, and football and tactics move on.
Even the great Shankly had 7 lean years before he won title for the last time in 73...
subsequently leaving liverpool in 74 after getting knocked out of europe in the first round..
As good an all as Shankly was, he knew he has out of his depth after 15 years at the pool.
The Great Sir Alex has done 10 more years than Shanks at the one club.. and i reckon there is still a title or two left in him.

Sir Alex..Truly the Greatest.

[Bulld0g]

The Greatest m8.. overall... no other Manager has maintained the success he has had for 40 odd years.
He has built winning side after winning side for decades.
Yes some managers will come and go, winning leagues, european cups etc,
but they bow-out/sacked after a few years when their ideas dry up, and football and tactics move on.
Even the great Shankly had 7 lean years before he won title for the last time in 73...
subsequently leaving liverpool in 74 after getting knocked out of europe in the first round..
As good an all as Shankly was, he knew he has out of his depth after 15 years at the pool.
The Great Sir Alex has done 10 more years than Shanks at the one club.. and i reckon there is still a title or two left in him.

Sir Alex..Truly the Greatest.

40 odd years. Where? He won the cup winners cup with Aberdeen in the 80s and after the fans calling for his head at Old Trafford he won the Fa cup and went on from there. Its 2012 now what year did you think it was

Shankly retired after winning the fa cup in the summer of 74 Leaving a Squad that contained the likes of Clemence, Hughes, Thompson, Keegan, Smith, Heighway and Fairclough who would all win the European cup with Liverpool three years later and some of them winning a second European cup with them. Hardly the sign of a manager out of his depth.

Sir Bob took over and in nine years won More European cups than Ferguson has in 40 odd years isnt it? Not to mention his six League titles. He was around 65 when he retired the same age Ferguson said he was going to retire but never did because he knows unless he equals Bob's record he will never be the greatest.


Robert Paisley won more in 9 years at one club than Ferguson has done in 40 odd

[thered]

The Greatest m8.. overall... no other Manager has maintained the success he has had for 40 odd years.
He has built winning side after winning side for decades.
Yes some managers will come and go, winning leagues, european cups etc,
but they bow-out/sacked after a few years when their ideas dry up, and football and tactics move on.
Even the great Shankly had 7 lean years before he won title for the last time in 73...
subsequently leaving liverpool in 74 after getting knocked out of europe in the first round..
As good an all as Shankly was, he knew he has out of his depth after 15 years at the pool.
The Great Sir Alex has done 10 more years than Shanks at the one club.. and i reckon there is still a title or two left in him.

Sir Alex..Truly the Greatest.

Very true certainly in this country


For me the greatest challenge a manager faces is breaking up a once great team that is going downhill regarding age and ability knowing the time to hold and release players and keep the team challenging for honours

This is where fergie is streets ahead he has built team after team after team and they may have come up short a few times but have always been somewhere near for 20 years

not to mention the largest collection of trophies of any manager and although he has spent plenty he has managed it withhout the aid of a sugar daddy and with money made by the club and legacy he helped make what it is today

And just to add if there were anymore doubts he was also a major success in scotland where it is unheard of since he was last there whilst at aberdeen in leading the way over celtic and rangers and even getting a european trophy against real madrid

he will be a huge miss and a massive blow when he goes but i dont think we will suffer too much he still buys young he is not going to leave a team in decline like matt he will leave a team capable of challenging of which i think mr mourinho will be the taker and probably one of the only men with the balls to take the club further

[thered]

40 odd years. Where? He won the cup winners cup with Aberdeen in the 80s and after the fans calling for his head at Old Trafford he won the Fa cup and went on from there. Its 2012 now what year did you think it was

Shankly retired after winning the fa cup in the summer of 74 Leaving a Squad that contained the likes of Clemence, Hughes, Thompson, Keegan, Smith, Heighway and Fairclough who would all win the European cup with Liverpool three years later and some of them winning a second European cup with them. Hardly the sign of a manager out of his depth.

Sir Bob took over and in nine years won More European cups than Ferguson has in 40 odd years isnt it? Not to mention his six League titles. He was around 65 when he retired the same age Ferguson said he was going to retire but never did because he knows unless he equals Bob's record he will never be the greatest.


Robert Paisley won more in 9 years at one club than Ferguson has done in 40 odd

bob paisley did a grand job tbh but who in your opinion should get the credit shanks started in the second division and left a very good team paisleys work was half done he just followed shankleys lead already which in my opinion is why fergies gets it cosistencey over time is the hardest thing in management

shankley himself said busby was the greatest manager that ever lived but then again most people are modest clough would have said himself

cloughie himself may have been one of the best but when it come down to it i think he didnt have the balls to manage a big club

his ego was to big he couldnt handle the fear of failure the fear of ruining his reputation

by your reckoning fagan would be the best would he not as his trophy rate is better than paisleys

[Bulld0g]

So you think my reckoning is based on how many trophies you can win in the shortest time? No i'm basing it on the fact that Paisley won three European cups and six Titles i never even included the Uefa cup or the three League cups. Who shoud get the credit, Shankly?
Walkinmyshadow reckons he was running scared after taking us from the second division to the brink of the greatest team in Europe.
The reason the argument goes on is because it's not cut and dried as to who was\is the greatest. And untill Ferguson equalls or betters it, it never will.

and even if he did Bob won his in nine years

[Walkinmyshadow]

40 odd years. Where? He won the cup winners cup with Aberdeen in the 80s and after the fans calling for his head at Old Trafford he won the Fa cup and went on from there. Its 2012 now what year did you think it was

Shankly retired after winning the fa cup in the summer of 74 Leaving a Squad that contained the likes of Clemence, Hughes, Thompson, Keegan, Smith, Heighway and Fairclough who would all win the European cup with Liverpool three years later and some of them winning a second European cup with them. Hardly the sign of a manager out of his depth.

Sir Bob took over and in nine years won More European cups than Ferguson has in 40 odd years isnt it? Not to mention his six League titles. He was around 65 when he retired the same age Ferguson said he was going to retire but never did because he knows unless he equals Bob's record he will never be the greatest.


Robert Paisley won more in 9 years at one club than Ferguson has done in 40 odd

Sir Alex managed at St Mirren before Aberdeen... thats where the 40 years came from.

Paisley ~~~~ off when he knew things were getting too tough for him... yes he was another genius, but inherited a side from shanks...who was running out of ideas not players!!!
Yes Paisley was an outstanding manager.. but couldnt last the pace..

Sir Alex has lasted the test of time.. he hasnt ~~~~ed off after a few years like all the rest, yes there were some lean years!!..
He has more balls than all of the ex liverpool managers put together..and that includes the quitter kenny..
(spare me the grieving excuse, he went to blackburn when there was a big cheque waved in his face)