Bonny Jockland

[DOUGALMCD]

Let's just say your at the wind up shady. We should all wait and see if we are going to get factual evidence of how Scotland can be independent or cannot. And for those who keep on bleating about the union where's the evidence to support that we are better off with them. Scaremongering gets us nowhere facts are what it all about and lets not forget about balls.

[Shady]

was i on the wind up then?

history states that i was presenting facts matey

[thered]

lets say that scotland gets independence.. its totally its own country, has its own money, border controls etc and the north sea oil...

When and if England and or the US want that oil, we WILL come and take it, because thats what we do..

Will it be right?
no.

But thats what the empire was built on..

And when we come and take it, and scots (quite rightly) get pissed off about us taking it, we will invade and turn scotland into another Northern Ireland.

Its in our nature.

no we wont we are like mother teresa now and we dont like tyrants like saddam hussein and gaddaffi anymore

i think all our politicians forget we went all over the world pillaging and taking over to build an empire and because we gave most of it back we now seem to want to distance ourselves from warlords and regimes which was the very thing our country was built on


regarding scotland you might have a point shady boy, if part of scotland vote to breakaway and part stay will we end up scotland split like NI?


my own view is scotland would struggle even if they kept all oil and gas in their region as production is dropping and its not infinitely reliable source of income

How would they fund pensions and NHs and a growing welfare budget?

Its ok saying we invented things but to be honest whats left to invent?? seriously maybe some back to the future hoverboards might take off but i think the only thing people invent nowadays is new style tin openers and things for betterware ooh and levi roots

The only big things i can think of that need inventing nowadays is virtually free fuel and a few drugs to cure disease

but that in turn brings its own problems curing diseases like cancer will make people live longer and cause more debt as there will be more pensioners


UK as a whole is bloated with public sector workers and a service sector there is not much left after that and the public sector is all funded by huge bills

Industry as we used to know it is dead and will never return on large scales like it was because simply wages are too high

If Scotland are all prepared to work for ?10 a week like nobby long in China then maybe yes lots of industry may move there but i cant see it


i cant help looking at salmond and thinking are you really interested in Scotland or lining your pockets in power

[DOUGALMCD]

Scotland was never beaten by anybody we were sold down the river by fat aristocats the same ones that are running us today. As for us being able to look after ourselves wake up and smell the coffee. Huge bills public sector blah blah It's called getting your own house in order and Scotland have always been putting more in than they get out.

[Shady]

we now seem to want to distance ourselves from warlords and regimes which was the very thing our country was built on

correct, now we're all about "regime change" and the oil/natural gas is a bonus...



but thats a whole other thread .


but after further research, the north sea oil wouldnt come into it, because as its not a sovereign state, scotland has no maritime boundaries and as such cannot lay claim to anything within those boundaries, such as the oil fields.

Depending on how bolshy salmond wants to get if and when he does get true independence, i can see us 'protecting' the oil fields with force. not a wind up, not scaremongering, just how i see things unfolding if these circumstances transpire.

[DOUGALMCD]

Cometh the day cometh the hour if it's worth fighting for. Do you really think that the oil and gas isn't ours even when it's on our own coastline? The real issue is that the uk as a whole have their heads so far up their own backsides and that the uk isn't a democratic country. We are being ran rings round us by the aristocracy who have every bank and politician in their pocket. The rest of the UK should be wanting freedom. Democratic Freedom

[Shady]

so after some more reading, ive discovered that scotlands annual budget is about ?30 billion, of which the Uk give roughly ?11 billion.

If you get independence, that ?11 billion shortfall could come from the oil revenues, but you would have to have it ALL and that just will not happen.

[DOUGALMCD]

Don't believe everything you read and it depends on who made it up.

[thered]

Scotland was never beaten by anybody we were sold down the river by fat aristocats the same ones that are running us today. As for us being able to look after ourselves wake up and smell the coffee. Huge bills public sector blah blah It's called getting your own house in order and Scotland have always been putting more in than they get out.

do you have the figures?

[Hoppy01]

no we wont we are like mother teresa now and we dont like tyrants like saddam hussein and gaddaffi anymore

i think all our politicians forget we went all over the world pillaging and taking over to build an empire and because we gave most of it back we now seem to want to distance ourselves from warlords and regimes which was the very thing our country was built on


regarding scotland you might have a point shady boy, if part of scotland vote to breakaway and part stay will we end up scotland split like NI?


my own view is scotland would struggle even if they kept all oil and gas in their region as production is dropping and its not infinitely reliable source of income

How would they fund pensions and NHs and a growing welfare budget?

Its ok saying we invented things but to be honest whats left to invent?? seriously maybe some back to the future hoverboards might take off but i think the only thing people invent nowadays is new style tin openers and things for betterware ooh and levi roots

The only big things i can think of that need inventing nowadays is virtually free fuel and a few drugs to cure disease

but that in turn brings its own problems curing diseases like cancer will make people live longer and cause more debt as there will be more pensioners


UK as a whole is bloated with public sector workers and a service sector there is not much left after that and the public sector is all funded by huge bills

Industry as we used to know it is dead and will never return on large scales like it was because simply wages are too high

If Scotland are all prepared to work for ?10 a week like nobby long in China then maybe yes lots of industry may move there but i cant see it


i cant help looking at salmond and thinking are you really interested in Scotland or lining your pockets in power

There is no doubt Scotland would suffer in the short term and maybe the fear of that will kill the independence debate.
There are so many variables and a small economy is always high risk, if America sneezes then we get the flu.
Salmond will need to do his sums properly and he will need to have a clear and decisive plan to convince people its possible..

Industry is usually measured on the efficiency of the government, wages no doubt have a impact on industry but that depends on what industry you are targeting.
High tech development is costly through time and engineering whilst factories are costly through labour required and big wage bills.
There is a big HP factory a few miles from my house and it was meant to shutdown a few years back, a used to work there and it was horrible to see it close bit by bit.
Now its half opened again because some genius figured out that moving the factory would make very little savings, they estimated ?800,000 a year would be saved which is tiny when you look at their turnover.
Amazon recently opened a huge warehouse, they could have done it cheaper by going to a different country but geographically Scotland was its best choice.

In the 80s the Tories had us brainwashed that industries could not be saved because of cheaper foreign labour, it never crossed her mind that maybe investment and kicking the unions in line may have been enough to revive some industries.
When Taiwan's ship building came under threat did they just shut up shop, nope, the government invested billions into making one of the best shipyards in the world.
They protected their industry and still maintained their premium price, swift action and offering the customer better service was their solution.
We flogged off business that "would" have made money, how many millionaires made a killing with BT being sold, it minted money in the early days, with some restructuring that could have minted money for us the taxpayer.
When you have a national dinosaur like Renault owning Nissan and turning impressive profits then it really makes you wonder what have our politicians been playing at.

Scotland has tourism, whisky, fishing, oil, water just to name a few and if we cut the red tape out then who knows what industry may come, Scotland is healthy as a brand worldwide, its amazing what tartan tac and rumours of a giant fish in a puddle can do.
With some deregulation and quick action a small economy could sustain itself, it has worked for other countries, before the crash Iceland had one of the best economies going till the bankers got hold of it..

Am still undecided about wee king Alec but a do know he is a lot sharper than i first thought.
A found this a good watch, a hate admitting it but a find Portillo quite a different guy today and enjoy hearing his views on the telly.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeV8T17Fgyg&playnext=1&list=PL0F9858158004 1B91&feature=results_main"]Portillo on Alex Salmond - Part 1/6 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjCxAK8Y9kw&playnext=1&list=PL0F9858158004 1B91&feature=results_main"] [/ame]

[DOUGALMCD]

Obviously not but I'm not running the country am I ? And I dont get them from google and I'm not going to get them for you just to prove a point.

[DOUGALMCD]

personally, i think it would be a bad idea to even start this thread. even simple stuff on here gets hate and venom, and this kind of stuff would only be fuel for the haters on both sides. on this occasion i think its best for everyone to keep their views private. come on guys this is not what dk is about

Wise words from a wise man.

[thered]

There is no doubt Scotland would suffer in the short term and maybe the fear of that will kill the independence debate.
There are so many variables and a small economy is always high risk, if America sneezes then we get the flu.
Salmond will need to do his sums properly and he will need to have a clear and decisive plan to convince people its possible..

Industry is usually measured on the efficiency of the government, wages no doubt have a impact on industry but that depends on what industry you are targeting.
High tech development is costly through time and engineering whilst factories are costly through labour required and big wage bills.
There is a big HP factory a few miles from my house and it was meant to shutdown a few years back, a used to work there and it was horrible to see it close bit by bit.
Now its half opened again because some genius figured out that moving the factory would make very little savings, they estimated ?800,000 a year would be saved which is tiny when you look at their turnover.
Amazon recently opened a huge warehouse, they could have done it cheaper by going to a different country but geographically Scotland was its best choice.

In the 80s the Tories had us brainwashed that industries could not be saved because of cheaper foreign labour, it never crossed her mind that maybe investment and kicking the unions in line may have been enough to revive some industries.
When Taiwan's ship building came under threat did they just shut up shop, nope, the government invested billions into making one of the best shipyards in the world.
They protected their industry and still maintained their premium price, swift action and offering the customer better service was their solution.
We flogged off business that "would" have made money, how many millionaires made a killing with BT being sold, it minted money in the early days, with some restructuring that could have minted money for us the taxpayer.
When you have a national dinosaur like Renault owning Nissan and turning impressive profits then it really makes you wonder what have our politicians been playing at.

Scotland has tourism, whisky, fishing, oil, water just to name a few and if we cut the red tape out then who knows what industry may come, Scotland is healthy as a brand worldwide, its amazing what tartan tac and rumours of a giant fish in a puddle can do.
With some deregulation and quick action a small economy could sustain itself, it has worked for other countries, before the crash Iceland had one of the best economies going till the bankers got hold of it..

Am still undecided about wee king Alec but a do know he is a lot sharper than i first thought.
A found this a good watch, a hate admitting it but a find Portillo quite a different guy today and enjoy hearing his views on the telly.

Portillo on Alex Salmond - Part 1/6 - YouTube

I agree with some points but any venture on your own in this economic climate is very risky.

Growth in UK is very slow business want government grants to build factories then **** off when they run out

I agree high tech stuff is whats needed for UK industry but on your own you would be then competing with the rest of the UK for contracts.

Is scotland more accessible than england to industry?

Even if you kept all the oil who did all the exploration BP,BG, shell all headquarted in England and pay tax to the treasury?

RBS who pays their debt back??

Ireland is struggling they have whiskey,guiness , fishing and tourism what would make scotland fare better

[nara]

I was actually a member of the SNP in the dark and distant past, but I'm older and wiser now.

The Donald Trump golf course fiasco was the final nail in the coffin of my support for them.

The mind-boggling naivety they displayed shows that they can't be trusted to run a piss-up in a brewery, let alone a country.

[Hoppy01]

I agree with some points but any venture on your own in this economic climate is very risky.

Growth in UK is very slow business want government grants to build factories then **** off when they run out

I agree high tech stuff is whats needed for UK industry but on your own you would be then competing with the rest of the UK for contracts.

Is scotland more accessible than england to industry?

Even if you kept all the oil who did all the exploration BP,BG, shell all headquarted in England and pay tax to the treasury?

RBS who pays their debt back??

Ireland is struggling they have whiskey,guiness , fishing and tourism what would make scotland fare better

Am not under the illusion that we would be keeping all the oil, a think we both know that wont happen but it will contribute to both economies and it would be foolish to base the entire economy on it.
RBS have nearly completed their repayment back to the taxpayer and a expect the government will offload it as soon as it can.
RBS set to pay back last of ?163bn loan from taxpayer - Telegraph.

A agree that the economic climate is risky just now but if we were to try and work out a convenient time then it would never be right.
Our current economy is flat due to the governments plan failing to stimulate growth, we needed a VAT rise like a bag on our hip and we are still tied up with a complicated tax system that's inefficient and expensive.
Its hardly a incentive to attract business investment, something the Germans learned 10 years ago when they reformed their system, now they are holding the Euro together and have one of the most stable economies in the world.
So our next move is to throw billions at the banks to stimulate growth, nothing happened and the banks kept the money and everyone seems fine with that...
Here is a question for you that a would like your view on, do you not think that British politics needs gutted from top to bottom?

A would say Scotland is as accessible as England and we have the infrastructure to compete with not only England but Europe and the world.
Its not a case of we get independence, rebuild Haydens Wall and never speak to each other again, there will still be many joint business ventures and a relationship will still be maintained.
Its like a said before, the main motivation is to stand on our own feet and pay our way without subsidies, a thought England would be happy about that and a find it strange that there is such bitterness on both sides about independence.

If you look at the Irish economy maybe 5 years before the crash you will see that it was one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, like many they made the mistake of sticking much of that growth in the banks and went belly up, a suppose that's the downside of a small economy..
If Ireland was doing ok before the crash then there is no reason we can't do the same.