Ripped off with a lemon!!!

[Canker_Canison]

Signed for yesterday by his partner. Got a print out of the confirmation details just in case.

I'm sure it wasn't meaty, this guy didn't know the secret handshake or the cough & wink gesture.
Might have to report him to the bad garage scheme as he's obviously not paid his dues.

[Canker_Canison]

Update


What a suprise. His letter is basically the same as his emails, I really get the impression he's an idiot.

According to him I am now trying to extort money from him. Which is probably a poor choice of wording as by using it he is accusing me of using coercion to unlawfully obtain money, when infact I am seeking the best solution for both of us under the 'repair' option of the trade descriptions act.

Although he will be appointing a legal representative if I take this further. Personally I think he should of already done this before writing the letter.

So, next step. Consumer advice & trading standards will be informed of progress so far, or lack of.
My next letter will include the written law on section 75 of the road traffic act 1988 as well as information from trading standards as to what it means for people selling cars & the implications of using the words 'sold as seen' to a trader. I'm also considering to include the penalties that go with a conviction & all the other details he might of overlooked, like running a business from home...has he informed the council to ensure he pays the correct rates, his mortage company, the tax man..... Mmmmm, does he need public liability insurance?

I'll keep pushing trading standards until he gets a visit.

[MrFug]

He's obviously a very stubborn man, and I suspect he knows he is in the wrong, or is deluding himself. You're doing everything right Canker. Hopefully he'll abandon his entrenched position and do what's right! Sooner rather than later.

[Snowy79]

If it was myself chassing the money back I'd work more on the threats of informing HMRC that he is selling goods on Ebay and probably not declaring the profits to the Tax Man. The Tax Man can hump you a lot more than Tradng Standards.

Can you prove he is a Trader? There's no set definition as it's pretty much up to interpretation. He could say he must have made a mistake when he listed it as he thought if you sold one car you're a Trader. If he is a Trader he must provide written confirmation of your rights to return the goods within 7 days at his expence. There's some good reading on the following links including an on line complaints form for Consumer Direct. Buying a car - your rights : Directgov - Government, citizens and rights and Get advice about a problem with goods or services : Directgov - Do it online

Good luck.

[thered]

Update


What a suprise. His letter is basically the same as his emails, I really get the impression he's an idiot.

According to him I am now trying to extort money from him. Which is probably a poor choice of wording as by using it he is accusing me of using coercion to unlawfully obtain money, when infact I am seeking the best solution for both of us under the 'repair' option of the trade descriptions act.

Although he will be appointing a legal representative if I take this further. Personally I think he should of already done this before writing the letter.

So, next step. Consumer advice & trading standards will be informed of progress so far, or lack of.
My next letter will include the written law on section 75 of the road traffic act 1988 as well as information from trading standards as to what it means for people selling cars & the implications of using the words 'sold as seen' to a trader. I'm also considering to include the penalties that go with a conviction & all the other details he might of overlooked, like running a business from home...has he informed the council to ensure he pays the correct rates, his mortage company, the tax man..... Mmmmm, does he need public liability insurance?

I'll keep pushing trading standards until he gets a visit.

The law is an ass


you need too prove he is a trader otherwise trading standards wont give two ~~~~s or anyone else for that matter

you are allowed to sell second hand goods on ebay you do not need to declare it to the tax man unless you are buying and selling for business purposes


forget everything else you need to prove he is a trader and he knew he was selling a car that was a death trap

unless you can do that you do not have a leg to stand on

devils advocate

in his shoes i would just say it was fine when i had it and if you thought it was a death trap why did you buy it

lets go to court

[Snowy79]

You have to declare all earnings after you have earned ?7,475 in any one year to the tax man.

[thered]

You have to declare all earnings after you have earned ?7,475 in any one year to the tax man.

no you dont only if your a trader does tax come into it


if you sell your old stuff privately whether it be ebay the car boot or the local paper you do not need to declare it


its only declareable when you are buying too sell


says the guide from HM Revenue and Customs.

"Are you selling unwanted presents? Do you occasionally sell personal items, such as old vinyl records or a sofa?"

"As long as you are not buying goods with the intention of selling them at a profit, you are not regarded as a trader," it says. "This means you do not have to notify us and declare the income on your tax return."

[gc1966]

snowy states You have to declare all earnings after you have earned ?7,475 in any one year to the tax man


sorry to play devils advocate but he had the car two years and certainly sold it for far less than he bought it so it is not classed as legitimate earnings.

canker,i genuinely wish you all the best but think you have spat your dummy out of the pram cos you got sold a pig.wipe your mouth and walk away

[Snowy79]

I was talikng about standard tax not VAT. You don't have to be a trader before you pay Tax. Section 16 of the HMRC Tax return is specifically for additional incomes. It can include pretty much anything from casual earnings, commisions, freelance earnings etc. The fnuckers can even claim Inheritance Tax on financial gifts from Parents if over ?3000 in any one year if you die within 7 years of giving it.

The VAT rules are however slightly different, with those you only pay on profit if the value of the goods increase.

The HMRC are pretty busy at the moment so it's uncertain if they would look into minor infringements but they could if they had the resources.

[thered]

I was talikng about standard tax not VAT. You don't have to be a trader before you pay Tax. Section 16 of the HMRC Tax return is specifically for additional incomes. It can include pretty much anything from casual earnings, commisions, freelance earnings etc. The fnuckers can even claim Inheritance Tax on financial gifts from Parents if over ?3000 in any one year if you die within 7 years of giving it.

The VAT rules are however slightly different, with those you only pay on profit if the value of the goods increase.

The HMRC are pretty busy at the moment so it's uncertain if they would look into minor infringements but they could if they had the resources.

you dont get it do you?


you do not have too declare money from selling a car it is not earnings

you do have too declare earnings if you are buying cars to sell as a dealer or trader

they are 2 totally different things

and for canker to get any joy with this he needs too prove that this man is a motor trader

because if he doesnt he doesnt really have a case private motor sales do not offer many rights

and if he is not willing too admit he sold a bag of 5hite you havent really got a leg too stand on

a court will see it has "he said she said"

and he will say the car was ok when i give him it and running alright he must have revved the balls of it caned it like a madman on the way home

canker will say i never it was ~~~~ed when it was sold

he will say well what the ~~~ did you drive an unroadworthy car home for with an illegal tyre you have broken the law

its one word against another and tbh if you cant prove he is a trader you wont get much joy

[Snowy79]

A good link to what is classified as a trader. HM Revenue & Customs:Selling items online, through classified advertisements - The badges or indicators of trading This is one of the areas if it went to court could be used to assess if he is a trader or not.

[Canker_Canison]

you dont

and for canker to get any joy with this he needs too prove that this man is a motor trader

How about a trade sale receipt.


and if he is not willing too admit he sold a bag of 5hite you havent really got a leg too stand on

a court will see it has "he said she said"

I possess the car with faults, it was looked at in an MOT garage the day after I bought it. He has to prove the car was roadworthy before he sold it. An MOT is not proof of roadworthyness, especially not one from 11 months ago.

Then there's the trade descriptions act, sale of good act & distance selling act.

The timing chain jumped damaging the engine to a point where it cannot be used.
Serious faults that come to light shortly after purchase that are not general wear & tear due to normal use after purchase should be either repaired, replaced or a refund given. From the initial fault I have 6 years to bring this to court. I have documented proof this happened on the second day of ownership & informed him of the issues on the fourth day.


I do believe he is mixing up his private & trade sale regulations/obligations. He really thinks that because he has a signed document stating it was a trade sale & that I drove the car away after a cursory check... that he's golden & can't be touched.
He has used the words 'sold as seen' in an email, which is also an offense under the sale of goods act.

I've been doing some reading of my own last night & might have come up with a plan. But I'll have to check it over with consumer advice & trading standards first.

[thered]

Then there's the trade descriptions act, sale of good act & distance selling act.

The timing chain jumped damaging the engine to a point where it cannot be used.
Serious faults that come to light shortly after purchase that are not general wear & tear due to normal use after purchase should be either repaired, replaced or a refund given. From the initial fault I have 6 years to bring this to court. I have documented proof this happened on the second day of ownership & informed him of the issues on the fourth day.


I do believe he is mixing up his private & trade sale regulations/obligations. He really thinks that because he has a signed document stating it was a trade sale & that I drove the car away after a cursory check... that he's golden & can't be touched.
He has used the words 'sold as seen' in an email, which is also an offense under the sale of goods act.

I've been doing some reading of my own last night & might have come up with a plan. But I'll have to check it over with consumer advice & trading standards first.

this receipt what is it ?

is it just a scrap of paper or is it proper company headed paper or say any business name ?

how is it worded?

not sure that he has to prove he knew it was roadworthy i think if it went to court it would be down to you to prove he knew which unless you can read minds is very hard to do if he wont play ball

timing belts can go anytime and to be honest you dont really know that it is going to go he may have knew it needed changing but putting a date on it is pretty impossible

from reading the posts and the advert it seems you are convinced he is a trader but his feedback doesnt suggest this but i hope for your sake he is

as its been said on here before in the thread trading standards and the like are toothless and dont give 2 ~~~~s and dont really get involved in anything he would probably get a letter at most


i feel small claims court would be your best best which will cost you around ?70

then the options are you either win or lose IMO this will happen the judge decides you are partly responsible for driving away in an unroadworthy car and you share repair costs

now if he is stubborn like me i wouldnt give a penny i would deny all knowledge and be happy to go to court

win lose or draw you still wouldnt get any money from me you would have to take me to court again and possibly again

and then i might give anywhere between a ?1 and ?5 a month due to my incredible outgoings and lack of funds

i hope you get your money canker you seem a decent guy and as stated earlier trader is the key to your case but be aware if it goes further as you could be putting more good money into bad

law is a joke m8 especially for private cases between 2 persons they have no power to do anything of note

HMRC or whatever may get him as a seller or whatever but that doesnt get you anything

[Canker_Canison]

The trade receipt is a fully printed page with blanks for the car details etc. I'm sure he will happily produce it for trading standards, who will then tear him apart.

The misconception with trading standards is that they have no power, which is limited when they only have allegations made by a consumer. But if they have the proof that offenses have been committed then it's very different. They can call in any government body to help with the case.

Now I can't find the document that states the seller is responsible for proving they did everything possible to ensure the car was roadworthy before selling. But I did find this from north lincs trading standards...

How do you know if a vehicle is unroadworthy?
Before selling or offering or exposing a vehicle for sale it should be thoroughly checked by a suitably qualified or competent person and any problems that make it unroadworthy must be rectified. If a car has a valid MOT certificate this does not necessarily mean it is roadworthy, however if you take the vehicle for a fresh MOT this will give you a better indication of whether it is in a roadworthy condition.

Again, this all relates to section 75 of the road traffic act 1988.

Small claims courts, like ebay & paypal, like to side with the claimant. If he's already in the shit with trading standards it will make my case that little bit stronger.

When it comes to the crunch, if I don't get a settlement from him, I want to make sure I've done everything I can to show him the error of his ways. Happy in the knowledge that defending his position has cost him more than a couple of hundred in money. With any luck it might cost him his business.



I'm expecting a call from trading standards in the next couple of days. We'll see where it goes from there.

[pantomime horse]

any further forwards m8
keep us all posted
and good luck again