Girl 16 told six months pregnant by GP

[TheCoder]

The story is very obviously designed to be sensationalist, thats the whole point of the pictures and the very one sided commentary.

The only attempt at balance is the last few paragraphs.

Every year, around 6,500 women are diagnosed with ovarian cancer, however, it mostly affects women over 40

So, a Dr knows this - chances of ovarian cancer in young girl low !

Misdiagnosis of the illness is normal as the symptoms are often associated with more common, less serious conditions

Mis-diagnosis of any illness is etremely common when tha llness has a low probability. Thats the risk because, like it or lump it, its all based on probability.

Phoebe's symptoms included constipation, lack of appetite, a swollen tummy and some sickness, which tended to be in the morning - symptoms often associated with pregnancy.

ok, the nitty gritty - the presentation appears to be a pregnancy. The Dr will know its quite likely for a girl of that age.

You can almost see the Dr computing the numbers here -

Pregnancy 95%
Anything else - 5%

(these are my numbers - I have no idea what numbers an actual Dr would assign)

Now, the next step. Either way its the same - ultrasound scan to confirm.

So, although the result goes against the probabilities has the Dr ~~~~ed up ?

No, because either way the next step was appropriate.

This story really has nothing to do with diagnosis as there's no suggestion the actual end diagnosis was delayed in any way.

yup clever guy you are coder

Its not a matter of being clever - its simply being able to see between the lines of a story that deliberately designed to steer you in a certain direction.

Obviously I have sympathy for anybody put in that position but at the same time I cant actually see there's much a story beyond the attempted sensationalism.

[racin-snake]

it has everything to do with diagnosis mate
the girl was told she was pregnant and clearly even though the statistics say otherwise to symptoms of the ilness she in fact had no thought of letting results confirm she was indeed pregnant though ?

this is the point pall are you slow or sumic ?
the girl was told that she was pregnant and in front of a parent two chances at diagnosing the tumour or indeed pregnancy all the girl got was a dose of laxatives and a bollocking (more than likely ) from her mother for being ill ffs
so she got told a misdiagnosis even after she made it clear she couldnt be pregnant does the girls word mean nowt ?
and bearing in mind the diagnosis was of being six months pregnant ..no two or three six mate that two thirds full term ffs at six months the childs heartbeat would be audible and if not the child was in difficulty so should have been dealt with there and then ...NO ?
im no doctor but i dont need to be to have some idea of the chances of screwing that diagnosis up

the doctor ~~~~ed up big time in saying with any certainty the girl was indeed pregnant and in not giving any benefit of the doubt to the girls claim

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-16197486

no ifs no buts just the facts mate the doc ~~~~ed up by definitely stating diagnosis and not basing it squarely on test and then say either way after said test
so in my mind no sensationalism just shite and a cop out


the girl should sue for incompetence this doctor did a stupid and rash decision and should at the very least say sorry to the girl

if you cant see that then you have a distinct blind spot in compassion mate
doctors should be seen to be as they are fallible as any other human
and if they screw up especially to this extent lawyers should advise them to do the right thing and at least offer a decent apology to the girl and also her family


no sensationalism no other diagnostic scenarios just admit fault and move on (COS YOU KNOW I AM IN THE RIGHT HERE coder )

~~~~in shame for the girl ill and disbelieved to boot i hope she has a full lasting recovery after her ordeal ..

as usual though compassion costs and there are a good few daftys willing to back the ones at fault not the aggrieved patient ...shame

[TheCoder]

it has everything to do with diagnosis mate
the girl was told she was pregnant and clearly even though the statistics say otherwise to symptoms

You clearly aren't understanding the point i'm making. Dr's can often only guess whats wrong with you based on likelyhood and probability. They mostly cant say with 100% absolute certainty. So, because their only 90% or 95% certain should they not actually tell you anything ?

In this case a diagnosis was made, Statistically it was the correct diagnosis to make. Even the news article is forced to concede the point that statistically it was unlikely to of been a tumour. The Dr doesn't have a crystal ball - they make decisions based on what they see.

Based on that conclusion would you then expect them to say nothing ?

Of course they are going to discuss the possibility of pregnancy. What else can they do

Even when the girl denies the possibility, the evidence still points strongly to pregnancy (yes, patients do lie) but the objection is still likely noted.

Next stage is a scan. That will prove or disprove the initial diagnosis. Its actually the next required step either way !

There really hasn't been any mis-dagnosis (except maybe initially by A+E but that will of been before later symptoms appeared).

this is the point pall are you slow or sumic ?

Slow enough to recognise a manipulative press statement when I see one

the girl was told that she was pregnant and in front of a parent two chances at diagnosing the tumour or indeed pregnancy all the girl got was a dose of laxatives and a bollocking (more than likely ) from her mother for being ill ffs

What exactly would you expect in these circumstances ?

Your a Dr, you see which way the probabilites point, where do you go ?

You really have no choice but to discuss the options with the patient. The fact the Mother was there is regretable but isn't really relevant to the course of action you'd be bound to take.

I'm sure you'd take note of the girls objections but it still doesn't change the required course of action. The next step has to be a scan !

so she got told a misdiagnosis even after she made it clear she couldnt be pregnant does the girls word mean nowt ?

This really is the crux of the matter. The story really isn't about diagnosis but about whether the girl was believed or not. Again I think this comes down to probability. Dr's know patients lie, especially in this kind of situation.

The real question was what actually transpired during this particular conversation. I doubt we will ever know the answer to that particular question - its a he said, she said thing.......

and bearing in mind the diagnosis was of being six months pregnant ..no two or three six mate that two thirds full term ffs
im no doctor but i dont need to be to have some idea of the chances of screwing that diagnosis up

I suspect the Dr could of maybe done a quick test for baby heartbeat but i'm not sure enough of how easy or conclusive that would be, especially if the Dr was unfamiliar in obstetrics. The easiest and most definitve thing to do is organise a scan.

the doctor ~~~~ed up big time in saying with any certainty the girl was indeed pregnant and in not giving any benefit of the doubt to the girls claim

Well, thats the thing isn't it. He can only go with the probabilities. As i've asked before, does he not bring it up because he's only 90% sure ?

Of course the possibility has got to be discussed !

no ifs no buts just the facts mate the doc ~~~~ed up by definitely stating diagnosis and not basing it squarely on test and then say either way after said test

Unfortunately you cant really say that ever occured. Is it not equally likely the Dr tried to discuss the possibilites and this was then taken as a gospel diagnosis ?

Maybe the Dr was too insistant, maybe not. Non of us can really say what happened at this point. The key is that the next logical step of scan was taken which then enabled the diagnosis to continue.

so in my mind no sensationalism just shite and a cop out

Yes, well, If you believe everything you read in the paper........

the girl should sue for incompetence this doctor did a stupid and rash decision and should at the very least say sorry to the girl

Incompetance, probably not because the probabilites are that such a tumour could not be discovered until a scan occured. The scan occured regardless.

Stupid/Rash - well, we dont really know how the conversation went do we. We only have one side of an argument that I suspect is being hyped for effect.

Apology, yes, I would agree. The Dr should certainly apologise for the misunderstanding. Who's attitude was to blame for the misunderstanding we have no way of knowing (I'd like to bet it was the Mothers though)

if you cant see that then you have a distinct blind spot in compassion mate

Dont mix compassion with objectivity. Its perfectly possible to have compassion for the girl whilst still being objective about the story.

doctors should be seen to be as they are fallible as any other human and if they screw up especially to this extent lawyers should advise them to do the right thing and at least offer a decent apology to the girl and also her family

Yes, of course Dr's are human. People sometimes seem to forget that. They make mistakes like the rest of us. They get moods and grumps the same as you and I. How much this affects what went on in that room we'll never know. The only thing we can say is that a scan was ordered, regardless or reason, and the proper diagnosis then made.

~~~~in shame for the girl ill and disbelieved to boot

Yes, its a shame but as I asked before, what in the circumstances would you expect to happen ?

Obviously, the most likely scenario has to be discussed. There's really no alternative to the subject of pregnancy being brought up.

as usual though compassion costs and there are a good few daftys willing to back the ones at fault not the aggrieved patient ...shame

So, i'm daft because I can read a story objectively and can see things from both sides rather than just falling for the very obvious manipulation ?

Guess i'm as daft as a brush then

[racin-snake]

what manipulation mate a (apart from the shite you just posted)

if the doctor had said "you could be pregnant but maybe not we can conclusively prove this with more tests "

or said ..............."ime not at all sure of this diagnosis till the tests have been done" ..simples

if the facts are not in place don't say its a certainty ..i feel we've been here before haven't we ?

and if i remember you laughably said "there was no conclusive proof we actually exist" remember

here it is

Even the very idea we exist cant actually be proved to to any degree of absolute certainty.

Guess i'm as daft as a brush then

see your getting there with the admitted comments ...


instead of your pish of attesting probablity and media manipulation as a way to attemp to look like the clever **** and failing miserably
multi quoting and so on to dismiss points that are simple as it looks the doctor misdiagnosed and ~~~~ed up simple !

the doc ~~~~ed up period ! you can see that come on ffs
and then the doctor refused to apologise

a bit like you are now trying to salvage the argument and looking like a di*k

you are clearly attempting to try to make a point that is as you have described as a bad diagnosis and yet blaming the press and the girl for going to the press with her story

yer a star mate (a golden one tho)

your clearly not 100% mate with the story's point i think your overlooking the story by pointing out an obvious and noticeable
cover-up of your lack of compassion and getting the point of the story by doing the paranoid press conspiracy to sensationalise and yes they do that i agree but
see the picture not the agenda you have attached it might clarify the point to you as you still clearly don't get it mate

the clever forum guy cant see the story point for the made up complicated crap in his head

good to see after being called a conspiracy theorist unfairly we have more of the ilk in the ones who once called me this eh fool


the press are the demons they manipulated the doctors misdiagnosis
f**k off mate and get a life

[TheCoder]

what manipulation mate a (apart from the shite you just posted)

If you cant see when your been led in a particular direction by a press article then there's not much point continuing the debate.

Strange how your willing to take every word printed here as gospel when previously you've wanted everything proved way beyond reasonable doubt.

if the doctor had said "you could be pregnant but maybe not we can conclusively prove this with more tests "

or said ..............."ime not at all sure of this diagnosis till the tests have been done" ..simples

if the facts are not in place don't say its a certainty ..i feel we've been here before haven't we ?

How exactly do you know that isn't what happened ?

You've no idea what was said between these two parties whilst in the Dr's surgery. All you have is one parties 'recollection' which has then been spun for best effect by a journalist.

The likelyhood is the Dr made a probability based initial diagnosis (which is fine based on the evidence available at that point) and then attempted to discuss that possibility. I expect the Mother exploded and the girl strenuously denied. It was likely quite a tense and emotional time.

The Dr really has little option but to discuss the probability though. How else would he be expected to proceed ?

You've become emotionally entagled in the notion that there has been a mis-diagnosis (as the author of the piece likely intended) when there actually has been no such thing. The Dr may have been wrong in his initial guess but that does not make a mis-diagnosis. He has to start from the most likely point.

Dr's work by probability and a system of trial and error. Start with the most likely based on the presented symptoms and work from there. Its a simple concept and of course, at each stage they have to probe to find out if they are going in the proper direction. Statistically a Dr will be wrong on the first guess over 40% of the time although that is moderated somewhat by experience and local knowledge.

Whether the Dr could of proceeded to a better diagnosis in the circumstances I have no idea as I have no way of knowing what those circumstances were. I can imagine that once the subject of pregnancy was broached that further progress became unlikely, simply because of the Mothers presence. Its more than conceivable that the consultation broke down at that point.

I've pointed out that there was no actual mis-diagnosis as these things are normally understood. The rest is hearsay between two opposed parties. We'll never actually know what happened.

For all I know the Dr may indeed be a moron. All i've tried to do is balance the story somewhat by explaining how a Dr actually makes decisions (something i'm guessing you already know and accept) and pointing out likely alternative scenarios.

and if i remember you laughably said "there was no conclusive proof we actually exist" remember

At the time, I was talking about your standards of proof. By your concepts there would be no satisfactory conclusive proof. Your requirements were ridiculous to the point of absurdity. It was pointless continuing to attempt a debate in those circumstances

you are clearly attempting to try to make a point that is as you have described as a bad diagnosis and yet blaming the press and the girl for going to the press with her story

I'm saying there is always two sides to a story and you usually cant believe anything printed in the press as gospel. For somebody who puts such store in absolute 'proof' your amazingly willing to believe. But then that really doesn't suprise me !

ok, no point debating this further with you so thats my last word on this subject to you. No doubt you wont be able to resist a reply

[gc1966]

I would put more blame with A+E, they sent her home with laxatives, and they have all the diagnosis equipment at hand,

think that is the most sensible of all the posts on this thread.

it states that the doc insisted it was a pregnancy which must have been based on the facts given from a +e.

maybe it was the most obvious answer and a pregnancy test at 6 months would be pretty pointless, if the doc could feel an extended womb and assumed the girl was pregnant.

is it a leap too far for the doc to think that a 16 year old with her mother in tow would deny being pregnant,must have seen it a thousand times and sending the girl for a scan was the best option,if she was 6 months pregnant and the unborn had any problems developing they needed to know asap.

with the info the doc had she made what she considered to be the best call.

[nara]

think that is the most sensible of all the posts on this thread.

it states that the doc insisted it was a pregnancy which must have been based on the facts given from a +e.

maybe it was the most obvious answer and a pregnancy test at 6 months would be pretty pointless, if the doc could feel an extended womb and assumed the girl was pregnant.

is it a leap too far for the doc to think that a 16 year old with her mother in tow would deny being pregnant,must have seen it a thousand times and sending the girl for a scan was the best option,if she was 6 months pregnant and the unborn had any problems developing they needed to know asap.

with the info the doc had she made what she considered to be the best call.

Common sense instead of abuse! That's refreshing.

Bottom line? this is a "Daily Mail" story. Start with sensationalism and bury the relevance near the end.

"Misdiagnosis of the illness is normal as the symptoms are often associated with more common, less serious conditions."

A mistake was made. Lessons will be learned.

[racin-snake]

A mistake was made. Lessons will be learned.

yet no apology ..another lesson learned

the bottom line is the girl told the truth and was not believed based on some type of statistical shit

yet no apology was made for the fact that is the crux of the story
not sensationalism not any type of over the top and non factual reporting and certainly does not need the full details of doctor and patient conversation to prove the doctor disregarded the patients information and crucially misdiagnosed base on the fact the patient was not deemed to be truthful


any other way you look at it is just garnishing the turd

doc screwed up she should be apologising and or be sued end off

as for the reply part you bet your life as i know you know you are wrong and also the doctor clearly was wrong in this instance .....................

and no sensationalistic and garnishing the events in a fictitious way will change that coder all you have done in your attempt (unsuccessfully) at being balanced has garnished the story with more crap nothing but conjecture and hearsay and statistics that you cannot confirm and like everything else dragged up from your quite fertile yet unrealistic imagination to make your version of events nothing more than a fantasy of your own making
ever did any work for mills and boon ?

and bye coder enjoy another cop out ...your modus operandi to talk keek and run ...traaaa

[notoriouseddie]

I have been following this thread and all I can say is Wow...Racing-Snake, you couldn't be more wrong.

Imagine you were a doctor, day in and day out, young teenage girls come in to see you complaining of a swollen belly, sickness in the morning etc, you send them for scans and 99% of the time it turns out they're pregnant. Some of these girls might say its impossible that they're pregnant. Again, you send them for a scan and low and behold - They're pregnant!

This is the reality of what GP's will routinely see.

So another day, another patient complaining of swollen belly, sickness in the morning etc. From past experience you know that there is a 99% chance she is pregnant. The patient says its impossible. But sure enough loads of other 16 year old patients also told you this and turns out they were telling porkies and they too were pregnant.

How can you possibly say the doctor '~~~~ed up big time' by insisting in the high likeliness of pregnancy?

What you seem to think is that whenever someone goes to their GP complaining of one thing or the next, then that GP should test them for absolutely every possible cause of their symptoms!! This in reality is ridiculous as these tests are very expensive, time consuming and often unneccesary.

Lets create another example. Day in day out people go to their GP with sore throat and runny nose. GP's diagnosis is a viral infection and prescribed pain killers and bed rest. 99% of the time this will be the case and the patient gets better. However one day someone comes in complaining of a runny nose and sore throat but doesnt get better and then its later diagnosed that patient had a rare form of cancer that was causing these symptoms. Are you actually suggesting that everytime someone goes to their GP with these symptoms they should be screened for cancer? Hopefully not. Hopefully you can now see thay this is a very rare occurance and would generate huge unneccessary costs to the NHS as well as stress for the patient.

Has the doctor '~~~~ed up big time' for assuming this person had a common cold? No. Of course not.

You may think yoor opinions are correct but I can assure you, you are wrong. I can also assure you that you are infact a huge idiot.

[racin-snake]

You may think yoor opinions are correct but I can assure you, you are wrong. I can also assure you that you are infact a huge idiot.

well ime of the opinion your view is of the same ilk mate for what its worth do you think that the doctor should make any apology for this ?

as this idea's the crux of my argument ...
please tell

before making up contrived shit about common colds and so on

no iffs no buts one time only answer the question should the doctor apologise for this ? answer the question simply

YES OR NO

[notoriouseddie]

If she apologises then that patient will leave the clinic thinking "My doctor apologised to me cause she made a mistake"

This is not the case.

The doctor did the correct thing in suggesting that it was highely likely she was pregnant. Unfortunately for both the doctor and the patient, this was not the case.

I think if I was the GP I would say "It is unfortunate that your symptoms led to me coming to an incorrect diagnosis. Please understand that your condition is very rare yet your symptoms very common and it seemed almost certain that you would be pregnant. I hope you get well soon, but rest assured, the next girl that comes in here saying she has a swollen belly, sick in the morning etc, I wont be treating her any different to the way I treated you"

[racin-snake]

If she apologises then that patient will leave the clinic thinking "My doctor apologised to me cause she made a mistake"

"It is unfortunate that your symptoms led to me coming to an incorrect diagnosis. Please understand that your condition is very rare yet your symptoms very common and it seemed almost certain that you would be pregnant. I hope you get well soon, but rest assured, the next girl that comes in here saying she has a swollen belly, sick in the morning etc, I wont be treating her any different to the way I treated you"

YES OR NO MATE ! what part of that you having difficulty with ?

[notoriouseddie]

I thought I made it quite clear. No apology as the GP has done nothing wrong.

can you not read or summit, *insert other poorly thought through patronising comment here*

[racin-snake]

I thought I made it quite clear. No apology as the GP has done nothing wrong.

can you not read or summit, *insert other poorly thought through patronising comment here*

i can read perfectly well thank you

but am thinking your answer is just completely stupid as is your statements here


if you make a mistake bona fide or out of stupidity do you not apologise ?
as this coarse is obviously impolite and above all imho wrong

like this perhaps i now understand your policy on truth and apologising after pranging someone's car you wrote this

OK, Im gonna drop a letter through her door to say I'll pay for the repair. Hopefully she wont be an arse about it.

[notoriouseddie]

The doctor didnt make a mistake you bloody numpty!! Don't you see that?!

If you make a 'mistake', you learn from that 'mistake' so that the same 'mistake' doesnt happy in the future.

The doctor did the right thing in assuming that the patient was pregnant given the symptoms she had. If the doctor had sent her to a dentist because she thought the sickness and swollen stomach might have been caused by a bad tooth then this would have been a bloody mistake!

If you genuinely think this doctor made a mistake then you must be of the opinion that all girls that go to their GP with sickness in the morning and a sweollen belly should be screened for tumours.

If you think this is the case then your right to vote should be stripped from you.