Ministers defend plan to force jobless to do work

[Lainie]

please dont get me wrong. i totally sympathise with those who genuinely want to work and cant find a decent job. those without kids are particularly harshly treated in my opinion.

i have no objections to anyone getting a couple of extra quid here and there for bits of work as i know i couldnt live on benefit for the 10 months i was on it. what i object to is those who DONT WANT TO WORK and those who deliberately milk the benefit system for their own gain.


wish there was a quick fix to it all.

[flyingpig]

A fix - may not be quick - which is coming, will be to get people who are claiming benefits to clean the streets, clean their estates, do manual labour, complete basic admin tasks etc. If they dont do it, or treat it like a job becuase remember they are being paid council tax, child benefits, Jsa, etc they should be removed from benefits, and I being a socialist would totally support that.

We need to do something major in this country to counteract worklessness which is becoming systematic of this country. As Lainie pointed out her partners family, and that is mirrored up and down the country, and is starting to become a generational thing.

The days of handouts for doing nothing should be over soon (fingers crossed) and people would be made to do tasks for them benefits.. Win win in my eyes...

[Allen1]

A fix - may not be quick - which is coming, will be to get people who are claiming benefits to clean the streets, clean their estates, do manual labour, complete basic admin tasks etc. If they dont do it, or treat it like a job becuase remember they are being paid council tax, child benefits, Jsa, etc they should be removed from benefits, and I being a socialist would totally support that.

We need to do something major in this country to counteract worklessness which is becoming systematic of this country. As Lainie pointed out her partners family, and that is mirrored up and down the country, and is starting to become a generational thing.

The days of handouts for doing nothing should be over soon (fingers crossed) and people would be made to do tasks for them benefits.. Win win in my eyes...

These sort of comments have been left all over the place by various posters, most of them have also been replied with, there are people in full time employment actually doing these jobs!

OK so what do you want? do you want the council to make all these people redundant and add to the unemployment numbers so that the now even greater numbers of unemployed people can do the job that they once had for a living and paid NI and taxes on, for free? if only people would actually take a couple of minutes to think about the real issues that will happen to real people if this bunch of clowns get their own way. You will also realise that that sooner or later , what is about to happen WILL effect yourself and a lot of the people you know including your own family members, so all these people who only see or hear what the government wants you to are in for a big shock when they or their loved ones are on the receiving end.

Lets face it, any cuts they introduce is just being spent in other ways, there is no actual saving going on. Unfortunately while people listen to what the clowns keep saying ie its a SIN to be unemployed or on incapacity benefit and all the other crap they keep coming out with and don't even stop to consider that this is absolutely disgraceful and it is real people who will pay the price for such ignorance.

It is time we all get off our high horses and actually look at what is happening, its not just what is in front of your eyes, its also what goes unseen while you are being distracted. Good lord there is even Pepsi and Big Mac being asked about health policy for gods sake.

*McDonald's and PepsiCo to help write UK health policy | Politics | The Guardian

What next, the fun house with shooting galleries for the rich to shoot the unemployed, lets see how many dole recipients can you shoot today the winner gets a big Mac with extra fries and a Pepsi?

This is the way things are going!

[chel-c]

Some of you are saying pay the miminum wage , what ever they would get for working on this, if it ever happens can be doubled because they were being paid for six months for doing nothing, not only that what about all the other things that are paid for them, we all know people that dont want to work as well as people who do want to work, good luck to all of people looking for work, all the people who want do nothing and claim for everything i hope this starts soon and they find this really hard

[bonus2010]

@chel-c

You seem to forget one thing, I pay for the benefits system in taxes. Is that not
National Insurance contributions? Contributions based JSA is only paid for 6 months.
So I'm struggling to believe that if I were made redundant, I've received money
for 'doing nothing' for six months. Is it not the benefit I would be receiving
for paying into the system through hard work!

As has allready been mentioned, why should anyone work for less than the minimum
hourly rate? I find it amazing to hear that working folks are allways quick to stab
their fellow brother in the back.... no wonder there has been a decline in
trade union membership.

I'm sure people wouldn't be happy if they paid insurance premiums for anything else,
suffered a loss, then were told by the insurance company "we're not paying out
because you're a fat unemployed smelly person"

Hey, I'd vote to abolish the welfare benefits system in it's entireity, and with the
money saved,,,, make arrangements for my own private insurance, given the choice.

[flyingpig]

These sort of comments have been left all over the place by various posters, most of them have also been replied with, there are people in full time employment actually doing these jobs!

OK so what do you want? do you want the council to make all these people redundant and add to the unemployment numbers so that the now even greater numbers of unemployed people can do the job that they once had for a living and paid NI and taxes on, for free? if only people would actually take a couple of minutes to think about the real issues that will happen to real people if this bunch of clowns get their own way. You will also realise that that sooner or later , what is about to happen WILL effect yourself and a lot of the people you know including your own family members, so all these people who only see or hear what the government wants you to are in for a big shock when they or their loved ones are on the receiving end.

Lets face it, any cuts they introduce is just being spent in other ways, there is no actual saving going on. Unfortunately while people listen to what the clowns keep saying ie its a SIN to be unemployed or on incapacity benefit and all the other crap they keep coming out with and don't even stop to consider that this is absolutely disgraceful and it is real people who will pay the price for such ignorance.

It is time we all get off our high horses and actually look at what is happening, its not just what is in front of your eyes, its also what goes unseen while you are being distracted. Good lord there is even Pepsi and Big Mac being asked about health policy for gods sake.

*McDonald's and PepsiCo to help write UK health policy | Politics | The Guardian

What next, the fun house with shooting galleries for the rich to shoot the unemployed, lets see how many dole recipients can you shoot today the winner gets a big Mac with extra fries and a Pepsi?

This is the way things are going!

I dont want to see anyone out of work. I want to see increased public services... I am a socialist and have worked in the public sector all my life. Council services are stretched and we have had to close public toilets becuase when money is tight things like that go 1st... Also, we could have the cleanest parks going, rather than get cleaned once a week, it could be 2 possibly 3. We could have graffitti removed daily.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle, rather than put people on council services on the dole we are supporting them with more labour to the duties that are required.

[chel-c]

@chel-c

You seem to forget one thing, I pay for the benefits system in taxes. Is that not
National Insurance contributions? Contributions based JSA is only paid for 6 months.
So I'm struggling to believe that if I were made redundant, I've received money
for 'doing nothing' for six months. Is it not the benefit I would be receiving
for paying into the system through hard work!

As has allready been mentioned, why should anyone work for less than the minimum
hourly rate? I find it amazing to hear that working folks are allways quick to stab
their fellow brother in the back.... no wonder there has been a decline in
trade union membership.

I'm sure people wouldn't be happy if they paid insurance premiums for anything else,
suffered a loss, then were told by the insurance company "we're not paying out
because you're a fat unemployed smelly person"

Hey, I'd vote to abolish the welfare benefits system in it's entireity, and with the
money saved,,,, make arrangements for my own private insurance, given the choice.

ok i see your point i just want to see the people who dont want to work have to get up in the mornings and do something for their money,you know the sort of people im on about, i have no problem unemployed people looking for work i wish them luck, i work for a local council so my own job is not safe,

[bonus2010]

@flyingpig
We're maybe getting somewhere here.... you've identified areas of work needing done
in respect of public services...

So would you agree to having the unemployed doing the type of work you identify, at
the going hourly rate paid by the council?

Council tax benefit is a means tested benefit currently paid to part-time workers not
claiming unemployment related benefits, so in fairness that should be excluded, unless
you're saying that those part-time workers should do their bit as far as helping out
the public sector to make up for the CTB they get too.

Sharing public sector work with the unemployed must be the way forward. All I'm saying
is; that other types of public sector work should be considered too... let's face it, most of which
is unskilled.

[flyingpig]

@flyingpig
We're maybe getting somewhere here.... you've identified areas of work needing done
in respect of public services...

So would you agree to having the unemployed doing the type of work you identify, at
the going hourly rate paid by the council?

Council tax benefit is a means tested benefit currently paid to part-time workers not
claiming unemployment related benefits, so in fairness that should be excluded, unless
you're saying that those part-time workers should do their bit as far as helping out
the public sector to make up for the CTB they get too.

Sharing public sector work with the unemployed must be the way forward. All I'm saying
is; that other types of public sector work should be considered too... let's face it, most of which
is unskilled.

Very good point, but unfortunately not - I would be looking at it from a point of view of using it as a tool to create a critical mass of people to tackle worklessness in society. As you know there are entitlements such as sick pay etc, and public sector workers generally work 37 hours a week, the proposals are for 30 hours.

It would be a good excercise to see how much the state would "save" (not the right word because it is just a diversion of funds) if the benefits received such as JSA, council tax, prescriptions, dentist etc...was removed from benefit claimaints about how much it would afford if the money was diverted to public services directly - like 25 hours a week work. My thought is that they would say they dont want to do it.. Chicken and egg....

So thinking about it, no, use it as a tool to target increased public servces and get people back into work.

[msocsci]

This and the previous government could find plenty of money to bail out the rich eg banks. Now they have found ?7 billion to bail out another country and will probably have to find the same, if not more, again for Spain or Portugal.
Now call me a cynic but that is a lot more than is paid out in jobseekers benefit (and other 'worklessness' benefits). Would it not make more sense building up this countrys infrastucture by using that amount of money to create decent jobs. Oops I forgot, we live in a system dominated by a rich mans ideology, free market neo-conservatism. This means that jobs should only be created to provide the rich, usually multi-national companies with ever increasing profit and to bugger with the ordinary man. There is always going to be a cheaper labour source elsewhere for the rich to exploit and avoid paying taxes to sovereign states. If, for example, Murdochs empire payed its rightful tax burden (and wasn't let off paying by his right-wing politcal friends) then that itself would almost cover the benefits bill. Sorry for the Marx like diatribe (I'm not a Marxist, or even a socialist) but it annoys me that blame is being attributed to 'workshy' or the 'undeserving poor'. This was a philosophy that was used throughout our history and came to prevalance nearly 200 years ago. Read this History Of Workhouses, Poor Law Amendment Act Of 1834
and see if that is the kind of system you would be happy living in. Because trust me, that is where we are heading if these Tory bastards get their way

[craigyj]

The Tory philosophy is here for all to see.I'm 48yrs old and remember the 1980's Thatcher years.A boom and bust economy that led to the sell-off of most of Britain's nationlised assets-Water,Power and the Coal Industry to name but three.This party has no social conscience and we truly are NOT "all in this together".What is proposed is ultimately unworkable and will lead to them having an even greater stranglehold on the People of this country.Fear,threat and rhetoric are symbolic of their true intent-keep the masses down.We all know shirkers who know how to bleed the system but should be mindful there are genuine cases who are quickly tarred with the same brush.How many of the Cabinet go home to their council houses at night?That's assuming there will be any left or will they all be empty ready for disposal as Tenants lose the right to live in their own homes? If any of you out there are trying to buy your own house you will know it's bloody hard to do so at the moment.My local council is shedding thousands of jobs,some manual some semi-skilled and some skilled.If people who are on benefits are used it will be to pay people peanuts (more than possibly illegally) to do this work.We are being undermined by this Government and as this thread proves if you create conflict among the working classes they will implode on themselves leaving the way clear to implement any restrictive policies they desire.One last observation; THIS IS A COALITION GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS NOT BEEN ELECTED BY MAJORITY-THE LIB-DEMS HAVE CONTRADICTED THEIR ELECTION MANIFESTO TO BE PART OF THIS SHAMBOLIC STATE OF AFFAIRS WE NOW HAVE.LABOUR NEEDS TO REALISE IT HAS TO PROVE IT STILL HAS A SOCIAL CONSCIENCE AND HAS THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE AS ITS PHILOSOPHY TO RID US OF THE MEMORY OF THE BLIAR YEARS;A TORY IN A LABOUR DISGUISE. Sorry for the caps.

[lfc4life]

The Tory philosophy is here for all to see.I'm 48yrs old and remember the 1980's Thatcher years.A boom and bust economy that led to the sell-off of most of Britain's nationlised assets-Water,Power and the Coal Industry to name but three.This party has no social conscience and we truly are NOT "all in this together".What is proposed is ultimately unworkable and will lead to them having an even greater stranglehold on the People of this country.Fear,threat and rhetoric are symbolic of their true intent-keep the masses down.We all know shirkers who know how to bleed the system but should be mindful there are genuine cases who are quickly tarred with the same brush.How many of the Cabinet go home to their council houses at night?That's assuming there will be any left or will they all be empty ready for disposal as Tenants lose the right to live in their own homes? If any of you out there are trying to buy your own house you will know it's bloody hard to do so at the moment.My local council is shedding thousands of jobs,some manual some semi-skilled and some skilled.If people who are on benefits are used it will be to pay people peanuts (more than possibly illegally) to do this work.We are being undermined by this Government and as this thread proves if you create conflict among the working classes they will implode on themselves leaving the way clear to implement any restrictive policies they desire.One last observation; THIS IS A COALITION GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS NOT BEEN ELECTED BY MAJORITY-THE LIB-DEMS HAVE CONTRADICTED THEIR ELECTION MANIFESTO TO BE PART OF THIS SHAMBOLIC STATE OF AFFAIRS WE NOW HAVE.LABOUR NEEDS TO REALISE IT HAS TO PROVE IT STILL HAS A SOCIAL CONSCIENCE AND HAS THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE AS ITS PHILOSOPHY TO RID US OF THE MEMORY OF THE BLIAR YEARS;A TORY IN A LABOUR DISGUISE. Sorry for the caps.

MIND THE CAPS please mate

[bobwill]

This and the previous government could find plenty of money to bail out the rich eg banks. Now they have found ?7 billion to bail out another country and will probably have to find the same, if not more, again for Spain or Portugal.
Now call me a cynic but that is a lot more than is paid out in jobseekers benefit (and other 'worklessness' benefits). Would it not make more sense building up this countrys infrastucture by using that amount of money to create decent jobs. Oops I forgot, we live in a system dominated by a rich mans ideology, free market neo-conservatism. This means that jobs should only be created to provide the rich, usually multi-national companies with ever increasing profit and to bugger with the ordinary man. There is always going to be a cheaper labour source elsewhere for the rich to exploit and avoid paying taxes to sovereign states. If, for example, Murdochs empire payed its rightful tax burden (and wasn't let off paying by his right-wing politcal friends) then that itself would almost cover the benefits bill. Sorry for the Marx like diatribe (I'm not a Marxist, or even a socialist) but it annoys me that blame is being attributed to 'workshy' or the 'undeserving poor'. This was a philosophy that was used throughout our history and came to prevalance nearly 200 years ago. Read this History Of Workhouses, Poor Law Amendment Act Of 1834
and see if that is the kind of system you would be happy living in. Because trust me, that is where we are heading if these Tory bastards get their way

Labour made millions of extra jobs but the idle ones you care so much about would not get of there arse and do them so millions of foreign workers came over, then employers found they worked harder and then did not want british workers any more. The problem is people in this country are not hungry enough if there were they would go to work to feed they children .

[craigyj]

lfc4life,
I was merely attempting to highlight the point I was making,not wishing to seem aggressive hence my apology for the caps.
Best wishes,
Craig.

[Lainie]

as ive already stated in other threads. i dont see the point in national insurance conts. those that have never worked still get benefit and they havent paid a penny in nat ins. in fact the benefits system works in the opposite way you dont get any extra benefit for a conts only claim and you cant get hb and ctb on a conts only claim - that has to be an income based claim.

if some people dont want to work - fine but dont pay them a penny in benefit - let their families keep them.

id do a lot more than limit hb to ?400 a week - ?250 a week at the very most.

give wtc to everyone that works so it pays to work.

i know people that get a lot more than my wage and at xmas time they apply to the social fund to pay for xmas pressies etc - an interest free loan

aarrrrgggghhh