Bedroom tax, new thread !

[cgscott]

Demonstrating to keep people reliant on benefits is like feeding starving Africans so they can breed then their young die. Sure it'll give you a warm feeling thinking you've helped someone out but long term others will suffer. Give them an incentive not to be on benefits is the only real help you can give someone. It's becoming the norm now for some to say it's not worth working as their better off on the dole. There's got to be something wrong when taking into account all benefits someone not working is better off than someone who pays their way. It's not just a case of raising their wages either as all that will happen is inflation will increase and prices will rise so they'll be no better off.

Thing is Snowy no-one wants to work for minimum wage because they will only have enough for a bag of chips at the weekend.

They would rather sit on the dole and get everything handed to them.

Only thing missing with these people are there pride and dignity which is why we have little basads running around without a care for society.

Id much rather work and have nothing than sit and do nothing.

[TULGEYWOODMAN]

There are lots of disable people who work - you are spot on.... Being disabled does not mean you cannot work. It means you may not be able to do certain activities. One of my team is registered disabled.

its not the goalie is it?

[tornado]

IM disabled i got hit by a car and i work the hospital told me i would never work again all they seem to want to do is give u loads off pain killers which i did take for a while but found they make u more off a mess than getting used to the pain u have to learn to live with it and move on,i did find it harder to get a job and no i did not get kicked off the sick .I am very anti work programme but agree something does need to be done to get alot off people in to work the ones that dont want to or even try to,look at the money the wp has had they could off made new homes and got more people jobs with that money,well the guy who lives near me in a 3 bedroom who i said about on my other posts is now moving to a 2 bedroom and i bet i get more down and outs move in near me so it be a no win for me.

[thered]

Demonstrating to keep people reliant on benefits is like feeding starving Africans so they can breed then their young die. Sure it'll give you a warm feeling thinking you've helped someone out but long term others will suffer.

Good point

Too many people rely on benefit but you are correct long term it does little good. There are definite health benefits to working both mentally and physically and many who choose not to work end up with health problems and are never away from doctors. There is a good social aspect to work too as many who cut themselves off from work end up recluse and claim sick as mentally ill or agoraphobic. There is also a self esteem issue to a working man or woman feels like a part of something where in general the workshy dont give a crap which as cg said breeds into their kids

[rds60h]

St Saltire patron saint of welfare



Personally i think its just a wee tad deluded and yes they may declare an odd few fit for work who are incapable but the vast majority are ok and always have been ,benefits have become a way of life for many


There has to be rules to weed out people and tbh the rules are not stern enough, too many people know how to play it and stay on sick and keep cars, the innocent few who are actually ill and fail do so just because of lack of knowledge in how it works and not writing things down correctly



Paralympics tell us that even severely disabled can do a large number of tasks, so lets not pretend because it suits that the government are wrongly saying everyone is fit. Its a gross exaggeration


BTW salt i think cg meant that it sounds a bit rich with your business and Councillor chums coming on a site that started by scamming free cable tv, its now primarily a site for free garage programs

Yes, Saltire is a Saint. He is not only in the position to see things as they really are for the "working class" and the difference unemployment and or disability affects people, he is also in the position to see the reality of things as an Employer, many of whom are taking advantage of the situation and making it difficult to hold down full employment by using part time worker and contract workers and also reducing wages because they know that someone will work for less than is already being paid.

It is not Saltire who is deluded, I'm afraid it is you who is "a tad deluded" because I can assure you it is not a few who are declared "fit for work" it is the majority. And why ? because the DWP have targets to meet and ATOS as the employed skivvy of the DWP also have targets to meet. ATOS so called "Medical Professionals" are very rarely Doctors and so you could find a Phlebotomist "examining" someone with severe mental problems........................What does a Phlebotomist know about Mental Problems ? In fact ATOS have now began employing people with no medical knowledge or background to conduct these examinations !
And as for "examinations" most of the appointment is taken up by the "Medical Proffessional" completing a yes/no questionnaire with almost the same questions that had to be completed to claim the original benefit and both of these Forms/Questionnaires are supplied by the DWP and they do not have any questions specific to someboby's particular illness/disability.
Waiting for cases to come to Tribunal Appeal can take in excess of 2 years, does that sound like it is the "odd few" appealing ? and that is only those who have not been terrified into not appealing and have been prepared to accept that they will have to survive on a reduced "assessment rate" that will likely mean having to be able to borrow money off of someone or go into debt until the appeal is finalised and even then have to wait months after judgement has been given for the backpayments to be paid to them.



Yes, there are some that are playing the system and yes the are some for who Benefits have become a way of life and yes there has to be rules to restrict this occuring. But don't you think that they could identify those people much easier by having someone checking the street corners and pubs in and around the Job Centres, and what about having someone checking those using Disability Parking spaces particularly in SuperMarkets and the like...........that way they would find either those who are "faking" their disability or those who are abusing the Disability Car Scheme and the Disability Badge Scheme. This would be much more productive and could identify those abusing the system, without having to target those in actual need.


As for your statement about Paralypians, does it then follow that you are able to run as fast as Mo Farah, Dive as well as Tom Daley and lift as much as an Olympian Weight Lifter ? After all they are just ordinary able bodied people just the same as you !


As for DK being set up just to scam free cable TV I think that is somewhat off course and had that been the case it would have been shut down long before now. If the remark by CG is meant to allude to the right of someone who may or may not have been trying to find out particular information to stand up against an injustice that they see, then I suggest they re-examine their own stance on other points that have been taken up in other threads................Pot, Kettle and Black come to mind.


Finally a word to Tulgeywoodman in reference to Remploy Factories, it has been proven that many of those schemes set up were used only to utilise the Government Funds available to those "setting up" such factories and to utilise those "employed" under the scheme as cheap and or free labour and once "funding" periods were fulfilled those employed were informed that no permanent positions were available or that qualification levels had not been reached. So basically it was those with money scamming the system, but hey why bother vilifying them when there is some poor sod on your doorstep who is unable to defend theirself than can be ostracised and belittled.

FOOTNOTE :: It would be a good idea for some/many of whichever stance you take on this subject to have a read of Robert Tressell's "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" it was written in 1911 and first published in 1914.............................................. ...........Nothing much has changed !!!

[thered]

Yes, Saltire is a Saint. He is not only in the position to see things as they really are for the "working class" and the difference unemployment and or disability affects people, he is also in the position to see the reality of things as an Employer, many of whom are taking advantage of the situation and making it difficult to hold down full employment by using part time worker and contract workers and also reducing wages because they know that someone will work for less than is already being paid.

It is not Saltire who is deluded, I'm afraid it is you who is "a tad deluded" because I can assure you it is not a few who are declared "fit for work" it is the majority.

No i said they may get a few wrong

The majority are fit for work and many have gone back to work, are you seriously trying to tell me there were over 2 million people incapable of doing anything?? Most people on the sick do it as its more money and less hassle than JSA, yes there is an odd story of a man in wheelchair who has had his incapacity stopped but majority is correct

And why ? because the DWP have targets to meet and ATOS as the employed skivvy of the DWP also have targets to meet. ATOS so called "Medical Professionals" are very rarely Doctors and so you could find a Phlebotomist "examining" someone with severe mental problems........................What does a Phlebotomist know about Mental Problems ? In fact ATOS have now began employing people with no medical knowledge or background to conduct these examinations !
And as for "examinations" most of the appointment is taken up by the "Medical Proffessional" completing a yes/no questionnaire with almost the same questions that had to be completed to claim the original benefit and both of these Forms/Questionnaires are supplied by the DWP and they do not have any questions specific to someboby's particular illness/disability.

Stevie wonder could see through most claimants, and to be fair the best GP in the world makes a diagnosis on what YOU the patient tells them, i can tell them what i want and the clued up only need a go or rejection letter before the can tick the correct boxes to win an appeal. It was said when i was growing up that we would soon follow america into the prescription drug culture of anti-depressants like ambulance chasers and mcdonalds we follow our american cousins a lot

We now have different generations who cannot cope without anti-depressants, makes me wonder how anyone survived before, when we had rations and wars too fight

We now get everything for FREE and we are all depressed about it

As for your statement about Paralypians, does it then follow that you are able to run as fast as Mo Farah, Dive as well as Tom Daley and lift as much as an Olympian Weight Lifter ? After all they are just ordinary able bodied people just the same as you !

Bit extreme, im talking about picking a pen up or operating a computer or a machine maybe like izzy in coronation street, not winning a gold medal at the olympics

FOOTNOTE :: It would be a good idea for some/many of whichever stance you take on this subject to have a read of Robert Tressell's "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" it was written in 1911 and first published in 1914.............................................. ...........Nothing much has changed !!!

Nothing at all

First world war started millions killed, families broken up, no welfare state, no free health care very little medicine around, most homes had no toilets running water ect and no electric no DK ect

Nothing changed

Dont know how lucky we all are, there are many countries even now where you would have a right to be mentally unwell and depressed, Britains is not one

[Snowy79]

Sadly it's human nature to try to skive. I spent 24yrs in the Armed Forces and used to do physical training every Tuesday and Thursday as part of the unit. As a junior rank I'd see plenty of people turning up with sick notes saying they were ill and couldn't do it. They'd get sent back to their rooms until after physical training. As I progressed up through the ranks I made it so that even if you had a sick note you'd either stand to attention on the main parade square or if you couldn't stand you'd sit on a chair. If it was pissing down you'd wear waterproofs. In all the units that I was attached to that implemented this sickies dropped to almost zero. If I was a Catholic the Pope would have made me a Saint as I must have cured that many sick people. It's the same with benefits. If you give someone something for free they'll milk it for everything it's worth. Expect them to do something for it and they moan.

[TULGEYWOODMAN]

Why cant people without a job, but healthy be given the option of working on jobs like street cleaning, recycling centre sorting in council depots, or a hundred other things I can think of...........................................or no money !

[TULGEYWOODMAN]

Finally a word to Tulgeywoodman in reference to Remploy Factories, it has been proven that many of those schemes set up were used only to utilise the Government Funds available to those "setting up" such factories and to utilise those "employed" under the scheme as cheap and or free labour and once "funding" periods were fulfilled those employed were informed that no permanent positions were available or that qualification levels had not been reached. So basically it was those with money scamming the system, but hey why bother vilifying them when there is some poor sod on your doorstep who is unable to defend theirself than can be ostracised and belittled.

I am afraid you are off target on this one !

Are you honestly saying you think closing Remploy factories is a good thing?

Proves you know absolutely nothing about the subject.

Do you even know anyone who worked in a Remploy factory?

Have you asked their opinion?

Go away, check you facts....Until then I suggest you refrain from further comments on this subject.

[tornado]

Why cant people without a job, but healthy be given the option of working on jobs like street cleaning, recycling centre sorting in council depots, or a hundred other things I can think of...........................................or no money !

It would have to be a job where your not taking other peoples jobs or it gets out of hand,just look at the mandatory work activity what tescos and poundland were up to and still are at it,someone from tescos told one lad on the dole why would i give u a job i can have 10 of u next week working here for free.Greed takes over.

[rds60h]

No i said they may get a few wrong

The majority are fit for work and many have gone back to work, are you seriously trying to tell me there were over 2 million people incapable of doing anything?? Most people on the sick do it as its more money and less hassle than JSA, yes there is an odd story of a man in wheelchair who has had his incapacity stopped but majority is correct

So you think that being able to do something such as walk 200 metres in great pain makes you capable of being employed ? Get Real !
Most of the people "on the sick" do it because they are sick, not because it is less hassle and more money. It is more money for those who worked and paid into the system, which is the reason you pay into the system. National Insurance is what is says "Insurance" you pay insurance for all sorts of things and you hope you do not have to claim, but if you do have reason to claim then at least that safety net is there....................or at least it should be.

"Stevie wonder could see through most claimants, and to be fair the best GP in the world makes a diagnosis on what YOU the patient tells them, i can tell them what i want and the clued up only need a go or rejection letter before the can tick the correct boxes to win an appeal. It was said when i was growing up that we would soon follow america into the prescription drug culture of anti-depressants like ambulance chasers and mcdonalds we follow our american cousins a lot
We now have different generations who cannot cope without anti-depressants, makes me wonder how anyone survived before, when we had rations and wars too fight
We now get everything for FREE and we are all depressed about it"

Stevie Wonder would do a better job, because would not have been instructed to fail as many as possible !
So why do we bother with GPs, Hospital Consultants and Surgeons diagnosis if they just accept what we tell them ? I don't know what sort of doctor you see but mine examine people and then refer to hospitals and specialists if they find anomolies and these Spialist Consultants and Surgeons obviously know nothing by your reckoning, but someone off the street with 4 weeks training by ATOS is capable of instant diagnosis and in many cases provide instant cures of all ills.............well at least by their completed "medical assessments".
As for the remarks about Depression and Stress I used to be of a similar ilk of thinking, particularly because I had been through quite a few problems and crisis senarios and had no problem dealing with them, but depression can strike even the strongest and hardiest of souls (and I hope it never happens to you) and when it does it is devastating and can turn you into a quivering wreck in seconds and even when you are dealing with someone who is suffering it can be very difficult to see why and you can still wonder how it can be so debilitating. Until someone has suffered the condition it really is difficult to believe how destructive it can be.

"Bit extreme, im talking about picking a pen up or operating a computer or a machine maybe like izzy in coronation street, not winning a gold medal at the olympics"

I was only going along with your analogy. Coronation Street isn't real.........I know again you are using this as an analogy but with Tulgeywoodman and his "Why cant people without a job, but healthy be given the option of working on jobs like street cleaning, recycling centre sorting in council depots, or a hundred other things I can think of...........................................or no money ! " quote we need to be realistic, how many employers are even going to consider someone of such limited ability and even in the Utopian world where this would occur, exactly where are these jobs coming from ? If they were available then it would be the able bodied people applying for them, but those jobs are not there so why fantasise about them ?


"Nothing at all
First world war started millions killed, families broken up, no welfare state, no free health care very little medicine around, most homes had no toilets running water ect and no electric no DK ect
Nothing changed

"Dont know how lucky we all are, there are many countries even now where you would have a right to be mentally unwell and depressed, Britains is not one "

I said about reading Robert Tressell's Ragged Trousered Philanthrapists and that nothing had changed, if you were to read the book you would see it is about life and people and society's attittudes and peoples standing in the natural order of things and if you read it you will see nothing has changed, I was not talking about physical changes, wars, inventions and other advancements.

"Dont know how lucky we all are"

As I said have a read of The Ragged Trousered Philanthrapist and you will see this phrase or ones very similar, just take note of who says it and what their standing and position in life they are !

[TULGEYWOODMAN]

but with Tulgeywoodman and his "Why cant people without a job, but healthy be given the option of working on jobs like street cleaning, recycling centre sorting in council depots, or a hundred other things I can think of...........................................or no money ! " quote we need to be realistic, how many employers are even going to consider someone of such limited ability and even in the Utopian world where this would occur, exactly where are these jobs coming from ? If they were available then it would be the able bodied people applying for them, but those jobs are not there so why fantasise about them ?

Not talking about existing jobs mate, if youre on the dole, then out you go picking up litter, its everywhere, brushing streets, snow clearing in winter etc etc, not fantasies, just open your eyes....shite everywhere.

simple........no job?.............pick up litter etc..OR NO MONEY! [rather like community service]

Actually I rather enjoyed the book you quoted, read it over 50 years ago, didnt think anything out of order in it.
In fact it was one of the things that made me work hard, save money and become independent.


But I do agree with a lot of what you are saying

[rds60h]

Finally a word to Tulgeywoodman in reference to Remploy Factories, it has been proven that many of those schemes set up were used only to utilise the Government Funds available to those "setting up" such factories and to utilise those "employed" under the scheme as cheap and or free labour and once "funding" periods were fulfilled those employed were informed that no permanent positions were available or that qualification levels had not been reached. So basically it was those with money scamming the system, but hey why bother vilifying them when there is some poor sod on your doorstep who is unable to defend theirself than can be ostracised and belittled.

I am afraid you are off target on this one !

Are you honestly saying you think closing Remploy factories is a good thing?
Proves you know absolutely nothing about the subject.

Do you even know anyone who worked in a Remploy factory?
Have you asked their opinion?

Go away, check you facts....Until then I suggest you refrain from further comments on this subject.

I'm afraid I am not off target with this !!!
I did not say anything about closing Remploy Factories being a good thing, I said they were shut because those with money abused the funding policies and used disabled and unemployed people to line their own pockets without any thought whatsoever for those they "employed"
It proves that not only do you know nothing about the subject but that you are also incapable of reading a few lines of text in their entirety.
Yes I have had contact with people who have been "employed" in a Remploy Factory, I have had contact with both those who were employed in creditable factories and also those that were used and abused by those using Remploy as a front for robbing the system ! So I know the opinion of both those who have been badly affected by the closure of the factories and those that were ripped off by the establishment of a Remploy factory.
So what you need to realise is that the demise of Remploy was caused by the greed of those who had money and saw an opportunity to scam the system to increase their wealth, but who will never be demonised by the populace as idle money sucking leeches of the system despite the fact that what they scammed was far in excess of the minority of those who do "work" the benefits system.

So to quote :::: "Go away, check you facts....Until then I suggest you refrain from further comments on this subject."

[rds60h]

Tugleywoodman, just saw your other post ::
"Not talking about existing jobs mate, if youre on the dole, then out you go picking up litter, its everywhere, brushing streets, snow clearing in winter etc etc, not fantasies, just open your eyes....shite everywhere.

simple........no job?.............pick up litter etc..OR NO MONEY! [rather like community service]"

I take on board what you are saying there and can totally agree with that, yes the state of the streets and communities in Britain today is disgusting, and yes it does need clearing up but until the Government realises that funds need to be made available to Local councils to allow them the budgets to enable them to employ people to do these jobs then it will never be done.
Even if it was decided to utilise the unemployed to do these tasks "rather like community service" do you not think that would end up creating "false jobs" for well paid management teams and supervisors who would just find excuses to "punish" those who were expected to do this "for benefits only" job, when the fact of the matter is that the cost of setting up a perhaps 10 man management team and of course the cost of the consultants and advisors to achieve this set up would be the equivilant of employing 40 or 50 workers to actually do the jobs for real and enable them to feel the pride of being the breadwinner again ?

[TULGEYWOODMAN]

Tugleywoodman, just saw your other post ::
"Not talking about existing jobs mate, if youre on the dole, then out you go picking up litter, its everywhere, brushing streets, snow clearing in winter etc etc, not fantasies, just open your eyes....shite everywhere.

simple........no job?.............pick up litter etc..OR NO MONEY! [rather like community service]"

I take on board what you are saying there and can totally agree with that, yes the state of the streets and communities in Britain today is disgusting, and yes it does need clearing up but until the Government realises that funds need to be made available to Local councils to allow them the budgets to enable them to employ people to do these jobs then it will never be done.
Even if it was decided to utilise the unemployed to do these tasks "rather like community service" do you not think that would end up creating "false jobs" for well paid management teams and supervisors who would just find excuses to "punish" those who were expected to do this "for benefits only" job, when the fact of the matter is that the cost of setting up a perhaps 10 man management team and of course the cost of the consultants and advisors to achieve this set up would be the equivilant of employing 40 or 50 workers to actually do the jobs for real and enable them to feel the pride of being the breadwinner again ?

a good point