Ministers defend plan to force jobless to do work

[kin]

In reply I looked at what I wrote again and can not see where I said anything about front line services like you do jobs which you do and many more a very important to the country .There is over 7 million workers in the civil service and only 2 million are in essential front line services like your self 'Did you know they are nearly as many work for MOD as there are soldiers airmen and sailer's
No I do not go private as for 1 I can not afford it 2 I think the nation heath service is good
You must think I earn a fortune sorry to disappoint you but I am a self employed manual worker and last year I earnt just over 10 thousand so dont think that make me super rich.
I hate debt and like to save for rainy day and thought that I would take out a private pension so not to be a liability on the state what happen gorden brown has stolen it, it is now worth a quarter of what it would have been. I bought up 3 children and instead of going for a government handout except for child allowance I worked 12 hours a day 7 days a week to make sure they had a good life . so please do not think I am one of the privileged.
I think that even if the banks had not gone tits up this country would still be in trouble as the government was spending more than it was getting in, you can only tax so much and people start to ask where is it all going and see it wasted and keeping lazy people in a better life style than them selfs will get fed up and leave the country .
you think that I am not careing you are wrong I will help anybody who are in trouble or needy but I do not think that people who will not work or single mothers who keep having children for more handouts should be top of the list for help.
I would also add I now know I was an idiot but I voted for tony bair in 97

I hear & understand your points bruh.But I think you dont grasp what is at stake here.The Coalition gvt is busy destroying the middle class,therefore rendering us all useless.Why make 1/2 a million people jobless because u want to reduce the debt?It does not make any sense because all of those people will go on the dole.& they are saying they are trying to reduce the Welfare Budget??* sigh*
My point is the Ruling Elite is trying to make us all peasants,so we can all be at their mercy

[craigyj]

Bobwill,
I read your reply and you have my heartfelt respect for your dedication to your family.I note your thoughts on the contribution that frontline staff make to providing these services but let us all not forget that there are countless others who are not frontline and their dedication and commitment is no less than mine and in my particular environment many of them earn close to minimum wage with many years service.This will apply to all Public sector services and is not just indicative of the NHS.I'm also very aware of waste in these frugal times-many decisions baffle me and I've spent countless years confonting and trying to reconcile my own anger in relation to these.It's incredible that people who make ill-informed and often costly decisions are now asking the shop-floor staff to come up with money saving ideas to save 25% over the next five years.I've got a great idea-stop bonus payments to higher management and streamline this structure;would save a fortune!!!!
Best wishes,
Craig J.

[alexics]

[QUOTE=alexics;862825]You are all falling into the same trap. The stigmatization of a section of society based on ideas generated to benefit those in charge. Whether this be state, church or industrialists.

"The Protestant Work Ethic.

The set of values associated by Weber with the rise of modern capitalism and industrial society. The ethic is that we fulfil our duty to God by diligence, hard work, and restrained expenditure, with the resulting accumulation of goods acting as a reassuring sign (although not a cause, since the outcome is predestined) of eventual salvation. This combination of attitudes has an elective affinity with the discipline required for industrial production."

"Work" as a concept is a human invention as is money itself. A society could easily function without money at all as in early societies that used barter. Money itself is just another form of control over a population. You try using barter for any length of time and the Taxman will be after you as happened with the Lets system of bartering. Even though no money changed hands. To lose the control of trade and the flow of money means losing control of the population.

Pleasant dreams.

Mate,you must try & read that article article again.It cleary says the BANKS,using our ruling elite are using & abusing us.I mean the Recession was caused by Banks,Why punish the workers & jobless for that???Its the Banksters who must be pushined for it.[/QUOTE]

The article is irrelevant. Any working person or small business is taxed by a much higher percentage than really big business. They can open companies offshore and charge "management fees" in the millions. Thus only showing a minimal profit in the UK. You try running a small business and have a very good year followed by a very bad one. The taxman will have you by the b*ll*cks. Who is in control? Those who control the money. To make any difference stop topping up your phone or cancel your mobile phone contract. Cancel your tv and internet subscriptions. Shop on the high street instead of Tescos. Sell your car and start walking. Buy a wood burning stove to use to heat your house. etc etc etc ad nauseum.

While we rely on all the things that cost us so much money then we are enslaved. So get used to it. That's life m8. We hand them the weapons to shoot us with.

[jc69817]

@jc69817

The reason why I feel it would be unfair to take into account 'council tax benefit, and
'housing benefit' is because both of those benefits are claimed by people who are in work.

So it's really unfair just to point the finger at the unemployed exclusively for claiming
those benefits.

As for 'free' prescriptions & dentistry don't have much info on this, but I heard that allowances
are made if you claim tax credits.

.

hi pal
just making the point that it is all benefits that should be taken into account when assesing the hourly rate. everything comes at a cost. if i got everything for free that they get i wouldnt need to work. i do however work my arse off (approx 60 hrs/wk and sleep in a truck for 3-4 nights a week in all weather) to give my family a decent life and keep my sense of self worth.

[bonus2010]

hi pal
just making the point that it is all benefits that should be taken into account when assesing the hourly rate. everything comes at a cost. if i got everything for free that they get i wouldnt need to work. i do however work my arse off (approx 60 hrs/wk and sleep in a truck for 3-4 nights a week in all weather) to give my family a decent life and keep my sense of self worth.

Hi JC

I do understand the point your making... but prefer that fairness should be applied universally.

If we're going to expect the unemployed to work for their housing/council tax benefit, then we should require everybody else to do this, including those allready in part-time work.. claiming unearnt income... should they be forced to clean the streets also to make up for this allowance? (Maybe week-end work, cleaning the parks)

With the introduction of means-tested benefits like tax credits etc.. there doesn't seem to be the relationship between work and income anymore..

I really do sympathise with the amount of hours you're doing... have you ever thought about work share?
This is one of my ideas to reduce unemployment, and that is to get the full time workers to share the work with the unemployed... There should be plenty of work for everyone if it were shared.


(I'll be hiding somewhere... to avoid the crossfire...... :: )

[bobwill]

Bobwill,
I read your reply and you have my heartfelt respect for your dedication to your family.I note your thoughts on the contribution that frontline staff make to providing these services but let us all not forget that there are countless others who are not frontline and their dedication and commitment is no less than mine and in my particular environment many of them earn close to minimum wage with many years service.This will apply to all Public sector services and is not just indicative of the NHS.I'm also very aware of waste in these frugal times-many decisions baffle me and I've spent countless years confonting and trying to reconcile my own anger in relation to these.It's incredible that people who make ill-informed and often costly decisions are now asking the shop-floor staff to come up with money saving ideas to save 25% over the next five years.I've got a great idea-stop bonus payments to higher management and streamline this structure;would save a fortune!!!!
Best wishes,
Craig J.

Hi Craig
I was in hospital 2 years ago(dreaded C) and the hospital I was in the nursing staff was down to bare minimum there were busy all the time booking people in and all the other jobs so it looked to me that the front line has been cut to the maximum and no more cuts can be made there, as it was the management that look for savings on manpower on front line then perhaps the front line should be asked to make a saving in the management. One thing they should stop is the use of outside management consultants if any manager can not make a decision with out an outside consultant he should not be in the job .This cost the nhs millions last year.
I heard a good definition of a management consultant he is someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time

[craigyj]

Bobwill,
sorry to hear of your condition-I agree with your comment on outside consultants-my Wife works for the local council (that is until her work is transferred to Leicester in 18mths) and councils also pay vast amounts for these people for "expert" advice which is normally far from it.Latest one is getting ?1000 per day but the point is lost on Managers when it's highlighted that these people have no idea how council departments work and try to implement unworkable objectives.You are correct too that frontline staff should have more say in the management structure and real power to veto inappropriate appointments.My own line manager must earn close to ?40,000 and could not run a p**s-up in a brewery!!
Best wishes,
Craig J.

[bobwill]

I have a mate who is a fraud investigator for dhss or what ever its called this week ,he was telling me about a useless work colleague and his supervisor wanted to get rid of him, he could not be dismissed for being useless, so he recommended him for promotion in another office.This went well for about 2 years then he came back in charge over the supervisor. The other office done it to get there own back .

[craigyj]

That's the problem;it's nigh on impossible to out the incompetents once employed and I've not come across a senior manager willing to admit there's been a ~~~~ up when appointing these people let alone do 'owt about it.A closed shop in layman;s terms,people who continually sell their souls for rock and roll.I cannot abide this corporate ideal.