kennedy assassination

[piopat]

i just wanted to comment on this topic i decided to do it here rather than open a new thread even tho i know this thread is about two years old now . .its a very interesting topic and i have done a lot of reading on this subject (books and online ) and looked at the video and pictures taken that day. just to start with lee oswald ,it is a known fact that he was an agent of some sort with the fbi and very likely the cia (so this should raise questions in poeples minds on its own ) and he can be clearly linked to people like clay shaw /jack ruby/dave ferry 3 people who were implicated in the jfk case . but lets talk about oswalds movements between 12 and 12.30 pm the day of the assassination .the warren commision says he was on the sixth floor hiding in the snipers nest and that he was most likely in their for the whole half an hour , so where was he ? ,a man called eddie piper (who worked with oswald ) said he spoke to him at 12.00 pm on the first floor (where oswald said he was eating his lunch) he was seen here at around the same time by two other employees harold norman and junior jarman . a man called bill shelly sees oswald near the phone on the first floor between 12.10 and 12.15 pm (bill shelly is never brought to testify in front of the warren commision ) at 12.15 carolyn arnold goes to the canteen on the first floor and sees oswald eating his lunch (she complained that her testimony that she gave to the warren commision was altered to say 12.25 ,there is a reason for this ) at 12.15 arnold rowland down on the street opposite the texas schoolbook depository looks up and he sees 2 men one in the window of the snipers nest (who he says is dark complected) and another man at the other end of the building . other people say they saw this man in the snipers nest and he wore a white shirt (when oswald is later confronted by officer marion baker ,bakers says oswald wore a long sleeve brown shirt ) at 12.20 bonny ray williams leaves the sixth floor where he had been eating his lunch (he said he never saw oswald )or anyone else . at 12.25 carolyn arnold again sees oswald near the front door on the first floor (where he said he was briefly )as do other employees ,so no one ever saw oswald on or near the sixth floor at any time between 12.00 and 12.30 pm .

now the warren commision says he was there but if you remember carolyn arnold and bill shelly both saw oswald at between 12.10 and 12.15 on the first floor eating his lunch (so he could not have been seen in the window of the snipers nest at 12.15 by arnold rowland (this was a problem for the warren commision ) so they altered her testiony to say she saw oswald at around 12.25 near the front door (this made it look as tho she saw oswald leaving the building after killing jfk ) this poses another problem as jfk was shot at about 12.30 . the commision had another problem the lift was stuck on the sixth floor and so had oswald been the shooter he would have had to use the stairway to make his escape (and no one saw oswald on this stairway at this time ) two other people can verify that oswald was not on the sixth floor or in the stairway making his escape . police officer marion baker and roy truly are these people ,baker having heard a shot dismounted his bike and ran into the building and met truly and they made their way up to the canteen where they saw and spoke to oswald .baker asked how long between the shots and him speaking to oswald (a maximum of 30 seconds he said ) truly backed this up . another important fact here is that jfks motorcade was due to pass the texas school book depository at around 12.15 ,this is important for the warren commision case (it was 15 minutes late ) oswald could have had no way of knowing this , this is why it also was so important that oswald be placed in the snipers nest at 12.15 and carolyn arnolds testimony would have scuppered that so they had to change it to say she only saw oswald at around 12.25 by the front door .

there is a lot more to talk about on this topic and i would love to hear peoples thoughts on it ,and i hope go into more of the details and facts of this case .

[johnboy1974]

i watched this program on national geographic and they had ballistics experts who examined the blood splatter they said it was impossible that the shot came from anywhere apart from the bood depository. furthermore they hired a world class firearms expert who went back to the sight in dallas and looked at all the possible places where you could have got a shot at the car. the grassy knowl was deemed to be impossible by him to get the shot in time and that was with modern weapons. i think the movie jfk has done a lot to get people thinking about a conspiracy but its basically rubbish.

[piopat]

unfortunately nat geo /discovery have created many programs based on the untruths and fiction that is the warren commission . on such program (inside the death car ) had people shooting at the target from the wrong heights and distances and the person shooting from the rear (supposedly oswald had no tree in his line of sight ) ,gary mack who can be seen in many of these nat geo/discovery programs was firmly on the conspiracy side and even worked with jack white in blowing up the mary mormon picture which exposed badgeman ,he only changed his stance when he got the job in the sixth floor museum.

hitler used to say the bigger the lie ,the more they will believe it (this was never more true than in this case ) the movie jfk is based on fact ,i have seen and heard the arguements about it and when the facts are checked the arguements fall flat . once such arguement was that the final scenes in the court where jim garrisson stood up and made his speech never happened (the arguement was that his part was very small in the trial and he did not speak at the end ) i have seen the official court transcripts and its nearly verbatim with the jfk movie.

the warren commission said first there were 3 shots fired and they accounted for the wounds made by the 3 shots , but then a man turned up who would scupper that ,he is james tague ,he had a wound on his face from a bullet that bounced off the kerb nearby and glanced off his cheek (he was lucky that he only got a nick on his cheek) so then they got in arlen spector who came up with the fiction now called the magic bullet theory ,his job was to explain how one bullet caused all these wounds in two people . he never explained how the bullet stayed in near pristine condition having caused all these wounds to jfk and connally ,and also people may not know that a large fragment of the bullet was left in connallys body and remained there for the rest of his life ,its clear the fragment was to big to have come from the magic near pristine bullet. the warren commission stance is one bullet missed the car,one bullet passed through jfks and connally ,and one caused the head wound ,only 3 spent cartridges were found not 4 so where is the cartridge from bullet 4 that hit tague.

the gun thats in the national archive (the rifle said to have been used by oswald to kill jfk) ,which can be viewed is not the gun that is seen in the so called backyard pictures or the gun seen in the famous picture where you see the police officer holding it up high after finding it. in fact 2 police officers made a report of finding a mauser and not a carcano (the gun thats in the archives is a mannlichercarcano) one of those officers is roger craig who refused to say it was not a mauser as did seymore weitzman, police chief will fritz and deputy sheriff luke mooney also agreed it was a 7.65mauser,and DA henry wade said in television interview that the gun was a mauser.

these are intelligent people and also well experienced with guns ,so before a tv show says it can prove that a bullet did this or somene fired from here and base there whole program on these points they need to do there homework, if there are serious doubts about how many bullets/shooters and from where and also even if the gun they have is the gun used and even if oswald fired at all (as nitrate tests proved he had not fired any weapons,and no witness has put him anywhere but on the firs floor) by making programs like this they only add to lie ,and maybe thats what they want . there are plenty of official documents and pictures and video out there that anyone can view if they want to, if you look at all the evidence with an open mind you will see the truth, the truth cant be killed like a human being can its just hidden, all you have to do is search for it.

[johnboy1974]

unfortunately nat geo /discovery have created many programs based on the untruths and fiction that is the warren commission . on such program (inside the death car ) had people shooting at the target from the wrong heights and distances and the person shooting from the rear (supposedly oswald had no tree in his line of sight ) ,gary mack who can be seen in many of these nat geo/discovery programs was firmly on the conspiracy side and even worked with jack white in blowing up the mary mormon picture which exposed badgeman ,he only changed his stance when he got the job in the sixth floor museum.

hitler used to say the bigger the lie ,the more they will believe it (this was never more true than in this case ) the movie jfk is based on fact ,i have seen and heard the arguements about it and when the facts are checked the arguements fall flat . once such arguement was that the final scenes in the court where jim garrisson stood up and made his speech never happened (the arguement was that his part was very small in the trial and he did not speak at the end ) i have seen the official court transcripts and its nearly verbatim with the jfk movie.

the warren commission said first there were 3 shots fired and they accounted for the wounds made by the 3 shots , but then a man turned up who would scupper that ,he is james tague ,he had a wound on his face from a bullet that bounced off the kerb nearby and glanced off his cheek (he was lucky that he only got a nick on his cheek) so then they got in arlen spector who came up with the fiction now called the magic bullet theory ,his job was to explain how one bullet caused all these wounds in two people . he never explained how the bullet stayed in near pristine condition having caused all these wounds to jfk and connally ,and also people may not know that a large fragment of the bullet was left in connallys body and remained there for the rest of his life ,its clear the fragment was to big to have come from the magic near pristine bullet. the warren commission stance is one bullet missed the car,one bullet passed through jfks and connally ,and one caused the head wound ,only 3 spent cartridges were found not 4 so where is the cartridge from bullet 4 that hit tague.

the gun thats in the national archive (the rifle said to have been used by oswald to kill jfk) ,which can be viewed is not the gun that is seen in the so called backyard pictures or the gun seen in the famous picture where you see the police officer holding it up high after finding it. in fact 2 police officers made a report of finding a mauser and not a carcano (the gun thats in the archives is a mannlichercarcano) one of those officers is roger craig who refused to say it was not a mauser as did seymore weitzman, police chief will fritz and deputy sheriff luke mooney also agreed it was a 7.65mauser,and DA henry wade said in television interview that the gun was a mauser.

these are intelligent people and also well experienced with guns ,so before a tv show says it can prove that a bullet did this or somene fired from here and base there whole program on these points they need to do there homework, if there are serious doubts about how many bullets/shooters and from where and also even if the gun they have is the gun used and even if oswald fired at all (as nitrate tests proved he had not fired any weapons,and no witness has put him anywhere but on the firs floor) by making programs like this they only add to lie ,and maybe thats what they want . there are plenty of official documents and pictures and video out there that anyone can view if they want to, if you look at all the evidence with an open mind you will see the truth, the truth cant be killed like a human being can its just hidden, all you have to do is search for it.

thanx for thorough and well presented reply but i just think its too big a conspiracy to cover up. ive seen enough evidence via tv shows etc to make my mind up i dont think there is a conspiracy.

[z786]

here listen 2 this

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF2JB53aX-E"]YouTube - The speech that got John F. Kennedy Killed[/ame]

IMPROVED LINK, FULL SPEECH

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj6bk66SuMc&feature=related"]YouTube- JFK told us the TRUTH.[/ame]


EVEN MORE DETAIL

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgbWMNcjvE0&feature=related"]YouTube- The Day Illuminati Revealed Itself - JFK _part 1[/ame]

[piopat]

johnboy thanks for your input and i appreciate it a lot ,but as i say if peoples thinking is based on what they see on a tv show (in effect what they are told and not what they know ) rather than seeking out the true facts that are there for anyone to see if they want to, its akin to brain washing . the russians used to put ads on tv and tv shows anti american (the americans called it propaganda ) the americans and the british said sadam had weapons of mass destruction (where are they ) sadam is now dead and cant argue his case . by the way sadam called bush senior when he was president and told him he was invading kuwait ,bush senior said fine mate (check it out its fact ) so on what basis did he start the war ,and why did he leave ,and why go and leave sadam no worse off . osama bin ladens dad is a good friend of bush senior and also of gw ,in fact they organised passports for the bin laden family to leave the us after 911 (check it out) thats an excellent link by the way z786 .

here are a few links http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/morningstar5.htm ,check out aquilla clemmons and domingo benavides (the two nearest people to the killing of officer jd tippit ,the second killing oswald was blamed for) benavides was brought to a police line up an stead fastly refused to point oswald out as the killer (having been only feet away ) and he was never called by the warren commission ,(i wonder why) ,aquilla clemmons saw two men shoot tippit and run off in different directions (she was never called by the warren commission) again i wonder why . here is another link http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO...ostphotos.html

the warren commision had a way of thinking and working ,that is that oswald was the soul shooter and if any witness contradicted that they were crazy/blatant liars/looking for attention ,and if their evidence couldnt be discredited discredit the person giving it . one case in fact is jean hill who was within feet of jfk when he was shot in the head (she said i heard 4 to 6 shots ) they discredited her by saying she was having an affair (how does this make what she said a lie ) in the movie jfk kevin costner who played jim garisson said in the movie ( i always wonder in court why it is that a prostitute has to have bad eyesight ) he means when they are witness to a crime . its normal for a case to go to court and all witnesses and evididence gone through and a person found guilty or not as the case may be (inocencent till proven guilty ),this never happened with oswald it seems guilty till proven inoccent .

and no one has expressed an oppinion that they can back up with any facts or intelligent arguements ,i saw it on tv so it must be true is not an intelligent arguenent of facts (and i mean no offence by that ) i just would like people to offer what they see as proof of guilt and offer proof and an intelligent expanation as to why they think its proof of guilt and not based on a tv show but on an investigation of all available information..

[piopat]

Evidence of Revision (5 of 5):RFK assassination, MK ULTRA + Jonestown massacre.
this is an excellent documentary its called evidence of revision ,its in about 6 parts .much much better than inside the target car etc.
Other Garrison
this makes for very interesting reading.

http://www.videosurf.com/videos/Executive+Action+

this is a link to a great movie called executive action
JFK Assassination Details
you can find lots of info and links here
JFK First Witness Accounts With The Zapruder Film Faking and Other Photo's, page 1
this is a link where people can view the first hand witness statments ,also it shows faked pictures including the famous zapruder film.

[johnboy1974]

Evidence of Revision (5 of 5):RFK assassination, MK ULTRA + Jonestown massacre.
this is an excellent documentary its called evidence of revision ,its in about 6 parts .much much better than inside the target car etc.
Other Garrison
this makes for very interesting reading.
YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
this is a link to a great movie called executive action
JFK Assassination Details
you can find lots of info and links here
JFK First Witness Accounts With The Zapruder Film Faking and Other Photo's, page 1
this is a link where people can view the first hand witness statments ,also it shows faked pictures including the famous zapruder film.

piopat i have enjoyed your information you have put forward. if there is a conspiracy then why should we listen to the warren commission was that not government appointed.

[piopat]

there are actually 2 official government versions of what happened (the warren commission ) which said lee oswald was the lone killer ,(the house select commitee on assassinations ) which said there was a probable conspiracy .does the government always tell us the truth , tony blair and george bush told the world saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction (these have never been found ,could it be they never existed at all) it doesnt take einstein to work out why they would lie , there is a simillar issue with afghanistan .earl warren said lee oswald and jack ruby never met have a look at this CTKA Reviews Page ,

http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/herman/herman16.html

this link is to dow 9/11 rather than jfk ,its called in plane sight
9/11 In Plane Site - Director's Cut
hope to talk to you more on this.

[piopat]

so above we have a list of witnesses (including a policeman)who saw oswald at all times only on the first floor between 12.00pm and 12.30pm ,no one has ever said they saw oswald on or near the sixth floor at this time. so what happened next ,well oswald walked out the front door and in to the chaos outside(as did many employees ,ill come back to this) the warren commission said oswald boarded a bus ,this is based on testimony of one witness only mary bledsoe (look at the link above ctka reviews page ) .no other passengers or the driver of the bus could place oswald on that bus only mary bledsoe ,(what was her testimony) she said i did not look at him but i saw him out of the corner of my eye (now look at the link and see how she describes oswalds face looking like murder) for someone who didnt look she saw a lot ,yet no other passenger saw this .its obvious they wanted oswald to appear crazed with murder in mind , and they also had to ensure that oswald was heading in the direction of tippit and within the very tight time scale ,(this is why they used the veru dubious mary bledsoe) in a court trial other witnesses would have been brought forward to easily discredit her but of course the warren commission knew oswald was dead and there would be no trial and no cross examination of their witness.

now contrast that to this, oswald got in to a taxi (having calmly and politely stepped aside and allowing an old lady to take the first taxi ) he then got in to the second taxi driven by william whaley . whaley said (he you could have picked oswald from the line up without identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policemen ) oswald complained that he was put in a line up with teens and so of course as a 23 year old man would immediately be picked out . the also put him in a line up with hispanics and african americans where he was the sole white man so again of course he could not fail to picked out . whaley of course picked oswald as the passenger that he had in his car .so oswald returned home to his rooming house shortly before 1 pm (it must be remembered that traffic was chaotic that afernoon which is why his journey took so long) we can surmise that the time would have been nearer to 12.55 from the statement of earlene roberts ,she said he changed his jacket and was in the rooming house for a few minutes (the warren commission added here that he pocketed a revolver ,this was not seen by mrs roberts ) at the same time a police car pulled up outside and honked its horn twice (mrs roberts said the number on the car lookeed to be a 1 and a 0 or the number 10 ,tippits patrol car was number 10 ) she said also that there were 2 policemen in the car . oswald left very shortly after (about 1.00 pm )and was seen by mrs roberts standing at the bus stop for a few minutes (untill around 1.04) before walking off in the opposite direction to where tippit would be shot a few minutes later .

the warren commission must have decided she was wrong/lying because they disregarded her statment and said oswald must have turned around and walked in the direction of tippit , where tippit on patrol stumbled upon lee oswald and oswald shot him ,its important to note that mrs roberts seen tippits car with the number 10 on the car door and 2 cops were in it (another more important reason for her testimony to be disregarded ) if tippit was with a second cop in his car when he was shot where is the second cop ,its quite clear why her statement was disregarded .

lets just say oswald did walk the mile or so and shoot tippit ,the first time quoted as the time of the killing of tippit was 1.00 pm (oswald was standing at the bus stop over a mile away so could not have been the killer if this time is correct ) it takes about 12 minutes to walk to where tippit was killed (if you walk the shortest possible route) a witness to the shooting domingo benavides tried to call the police from tippits radio after the shooting ,but he did not know how to operate it ) after a few minutes an other witness came to the car and made the call on the police radio ,the time of this call is officialy logged at 12.16 pm (yet officer tippit says it was 1.06 pm). it should be noted that benavides hid in his truck for some minutes during the shooting (as did the other witnesses) before trying to make this call and spent another few minutes trying to work the police radio before being helped by mr bowley , a minimal of 5 minutes elapsed between the shooting and the radio call this puts the time of the shooting as early as 1.10 pm (if oswald was walking he could not have been there for atleast another few minutes . another witness put the time of shooting at 1.07 pm and another at around 1.10 pm and officer roger craig said he heard the call for help on his police radio and noted it at 1.06 pm (could oswald have been there ?) he would have to have run over a mile in 2 minutes which is a physical impossibility.

lets say he ran how fast could he have got there ,it would take a top class athlete nearly 4 minutes to run that distance ,i was a runner my self so i know roughly how long it would take the average 23 year old man to run that distance (we were told of oswalds supposed prowess as a shooter but i have seen nothing to state he was especially fit) it would have taken him atleast 8 minutes maybe 10 to run this distance runnng at full stretch. he would have been quite tired and out of breath having reached the murder scene . but witness say the killer was strolling along calmy and even stopped to speak to tippit (no witness saw oswald running or walking to the crime scene ) one such witness described the killer as being white about 18 years old with black hair and red complexion wearing tan shoes and tan jacket and dark trousers (clearly not lee oswald )this witness was helen markham she gave a few other very different descriptions of the same man and was unrelliable as a witness at best. yet she was brought to the warren commission , not aquilla clemmons a lady whose house was across the street and who saw 2 men do the shooting and run off in different directions (2 killers wouldnt do as that would mean conspiracy) they disregarded domingo benavides statement also as the time scale he gives would not allow the warren commission to put oswald at the scene of the killing .
a description of oswald was put out at between 12.40 and 12.45 pm (ill talk about who gave the description and the timing involved in another post) one reason for giving out this description is that the police supposedly asked the building manager roy truly what employees are missing and he supposedly said only lee oswald was missing hence his description was given out. this is not the case as many employees left the building ,but this is important also as it is the lie that allowed them to say this was the reason for putting out a description of oswald , this description of oswald was not only put out verbally but also a police drawing of oswald was put out all between 12.40 and 12.45 ,thats very quick work indeed wouldnt you say . i hope to come back to this in my next post . i have just been trying to lay out a time scale of the events and detail the witnesses to give people a clearer picture ,then you will also be clearer on why the tv companies only put out the fiction like inside the target car and not some of the documentaries i have listed above.

[piopat]

so oswald let the texas school book depository just after 12.30 pm , it is firmly established that at 12.45 a description of him was given out (it was given by a man called howard brennan) brennan said he gave his description to a secret agent sorrels , this gave the commission another headache . sorrels travelled to parkland hospital with jfk and had no time to speak to anyone in the immediate aftermath of the shooting ,sorrels estimated that it took him about 25 minites to return to elm street. brennan claimed however that he spoke to sorrels within a few minutes of the shooting (the commission never reconciled this discrepency ,i wonder why ) it should be noted that when brennan came face to face with lee oswald in a line up he did not make a positive identification ,brennan would change his mind on what and who he saw quite a few times. its also interesting to add that (if they had this great witness who provided the description that got oswald picked up) why then did police chief jessy curry say on the morning of the 24 november (2 days after the killings) when asked if he had an eye witness who saw someone shoot the president ,he said ,no sir we do not.

it seems who ever brennan saw was not oswald as he could not identify him ,who ever he spoke to was not sorrels (so who was impersonating sorrels) and if brennan could not identify oswald in a line up (and of course he must have seen his face on tv and in the papers ) how could he have given such an accurate description .

lets talk about other witnesses ,s m holland was standing on the railway overpass (the grassy knoll was to his left ,and the book depository was in front of him ,james tague was down below him to his right under the overpass) he saw a puff of smoke come from the badgeman area of the grassy knoll (it seems his evidence was most unwelcome to the warren commission,it was ignored except that his evidence of hearing 4 shots was changed to 3

) jean hill and mary mooremon were two of the nearest people to jfk when he was shot (having first joined a large number of people in a chase up the grassy knoll to find the shooter,she was then dragged by so called secret service agents to a nearby
building) her camera was taken never to be returned or seen again and when she was asked how many shots she heard she said 4 to 6 shots ,to use jeans own words the agents told her that (she had heard but 3 shots ,thats all were willing to say) so within minutes of the shooting they were telling witnesses say 3 shots.

richard randolf car saw a man in a tan jacket on the sixth floor ,and also saw the same man leave in a hurry after the shooting (he was told by the fbi if you didnt see oswald you didnt witness it) aquilla clemmons who seen 2 men shoot tippit and refused to pick oswald out of a line up was never brought to the warren commision ,there were many people only feet away from jfk and could say how many shots they heard and what they saw ,many were never called to the warren commision and quite a few were accused of everything from outright lying and attention seeking to they must have been mistaken and even being crazy or having a mental problem . have a look at the link above containing witness first hand accounts , lee bowers worked in the railway yard behind the picket fence and he said something out of the ordinary had happened there (a flash of light a puff of smoke ) the warren commission councel cut him off here ,gordon arnold claimed he was standing on the grassy knoll at the time of the shooting and that shots were fired from behind him and that a man in a uniform with a gun took his film from his camera (take a look at badgeman revealed above ) he also said that on hearing the shots he dived to the ground a witness to that was in the car behind jfk senator ralph yarborough ,he said he saw a man jump to the ground , and to use his own words (it was like an old time football tackle ) julia ann mercer said she was driving on elm street and was in the lane nearest the knoll when she was blocked by a pickup truck that was half on the road and half on the kerb ,she gave a very detailed description of both men and even identified ruby as the truck driver (she complained an affidavid where she claimed that she identifird ruby was changed to (she could not identify anyone from the photos) its curious also that even tho both the sheriffs office and the fbi were informed of mercers statement and who she identified no full scale scale investigation was launched.

the point of my posts here are only to show that the events that occured on the afternoon of 22 november 1963 are either not accounted or are inaccurately accounted for and documents and photos have been altered and many witnesses who should have been called to give evidence were not or there testimony was changed ,if this case were brought to a court in 1963 and lee oswald was given a fair trial he would have been exonerated . i hope at the very least i have helped peoples understanding of the events that occured ,of course a person has a right to believe what they want and to hold there own opinions and i would always say to people to do their own thinking and investigating . and i would hope that if a person has access to all the full true facts of the case and are unbiased that they would come to the correct conclusion of what happened . no mystery is closed to an open mind .

what kind of gun was found in the texas school book depository? have a look below.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_issue/guns_dp.html

have a look at the multitude of info and links in the link below

http://www.whokilledjfk.net/gil_jesus_page.htm

have a look at the different rifles

http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html

[johnboy1974]

johnboy thanks for your input and i appreciate it a lot ,but as i say if peoples thinking is based on what they see on a tv show (in effect what they are told and not what they know ) rather than seeking out the true facts that are there for anyone to see if they want to, its akin to brain washing . the russians used to put ads on tv and tv shows anti american (the americans called it propaganda ) the americans and the british said sadam had weapons of mass destruction (where are they ) sadam is now dead and cant argue his case . by the way sadam called bush senior when he was president and told him he was invading kuwait ,bush senior said fine mate (check it out its fact ) so on what basis did he start the war ,and why did he leave ,and why go and leave sadam no worse off . osama bin ladens dad is a good friend of bush senior and also of gw ,in fact they organised passports for the bin laden family to leave the us after 911 (check it out) thats an excellent link by the way z786 .

here are a few links http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/morningstar5.htm ,check out aquilla clemmons and domingo benavides (the two nearest people to the killing of officer jd tippit ,the second killing oswald was blamed for) benavides was brought to a police line up an stead fastly refused to point oswald out as the killer (having been only feet away ) and he was never called by the warren commission ,(i wonder why) ,aquilla clemmons saw two men shoot tippit and run off in different directions (she was never called by the warren commission) again i wonder why . here is another link http://www.the7thfire.com/jfk/man_in_the_doorway.htm

the warren commision had a way of thinking and working ,that is that oswald was the soul shooter and if any witness contradicted that they were crazy/blatant liars/looking for attention ,and if their evidence couldnt be discredited discredit the person giving it . one case in fact is jean hill who was within feet of jfk when he was shot in the head (she said i heard 4 to 6 shots ) they discredited her by saying she was having an affair (how does this make what she said a lie ) in the movie jfk kevin costner who played jim garisson said in the movie ( i always wonder in court why it is that a prostitute has to have bad eyesight ) he means when they are witness to a crime . its normal for a case to go to court and all witnesses and evididence gone through and a person found guilty or not as the case may be (inocencent till proven guilty ),this never happened with oswald it seems guilty till proven inoccent .

and no one has expressed an oppinion that they can back up with any facts or intelligent arguements ,i saw it on tv so it must be true is not an intelligent arguenent of facts (and i mean no offence by that ) i just would like people to offer what they see as proof of guilt and offer proof and an intelligent expanation as to why they think its proof of guilt and not based on a tv show but on an investigation of all available information..

you say i should back up my facts with evidence and not tv shows but where do you get your facts from. bush said fine when sadam phoned him to say he was invading kuwait. how do you know this yes its because you read it somewhere or watched it somewhere exactly the same as myself.

[piopat]

im not in anyway arguing with you mate ,i gave you some links to very good documentaries that you wont see on any major tv network ,my point was that these tv channels will only show programs that go along with the official story .when i said (no one has expressed an opinion that they can back up with facts and intelligent arguements) i meant the people who appear on these shows .

these people who call them selves investigative journalists refuse to sit down on national tv and debate the evidence , surely an investigative journalists job is to look in to all the evidence/facts and speak to all witnesses and then give an unbiased report ,how can they call them selves investigative journalists if they start with this man is guilty and only look for so called evidence that shows that ,and ignore evidence that would show innocence.

when i said (i saw it on tv so it must be true ) this was an in general thing ,meaning a lot of people say stuff like that .

there are many documents available through the freedom of information act (that wont be shown on tv ) that any one can see . the facts i gave above are what i have learned from reading many many of these documents , and reading witness reports etc .anybody can get the witness reports and check them against the versions in the warren commission volumes , and anyone can view any document available under the freedom of information act . as i said above people should do their own thinking and investigating and come to their own conclusion. i dont/wont and would never say believe me over everyone else ,i always only say look for your self and make up your own mind .

above i gave the warren commision official versions of what they said happened and intertwined it with documented witness statements and tried to give an honest and true assessment of the evidence that as i say is available to all.
i in know way meant any offence johnboy and if i unintentionaly gave any i do appolagise .

[johnboy1974]

im not in anyway arguing with you mate ,i gave you some links to very good documentaries that you wont see on any major tv network ,my point was that these tv channels will only show programs that go along with the official story .when i said (no one has expressed an opinion that they can back up with facts and intelligent arguements) i meant the people who appear on these shows .

these people who call them selves investigative journalists refuse to sit down on national tv and debate the evidence , surely an investigative journalists job is to look in to all the evidence/facts and speak to all witnesses and then give an unbiased report ,how can they call them selves investigative journalists if they start with this man is guilty and only look for so called evidence that shows that ,and ignore evidence that would show innocence.

when i said (i saw it on tv so it must be true ) this was an in general thing ,meaning a lot of people say stuff like that .

there are many documents available through the freedom of information act (that wont be shown on tv ) that any one can see . the facts i gave above are what i have learned from reading many many of these documents , and reading witness reports etc .anybody can get the witness reports and check them against the versions in the warren commission volumes , and anyone can view any document available under the freedom of information act . as i said above people should do their own thinking and investigating and come to their own conclusion. i dont/wont and would never say believe me over everyone else ,i always only say look for your self and make up your own mind .

above i gave the warren commision official versions of what they said happened and intertwined it with documented witness statements and tried to give an honest and true assessment of the evidence that as i say is available to all.
i in know way meant any offence johnboy and if i unintentionaly gave any i do appolagise .

thanks mate all i am saying is that there is enough evidence out there from both sides for everyone to make up their own minds on this matter i have enjoyed your posts and all the info and links you have provided- it even made me download jfk direcrers cut and watch it over again, i enjoyed it but as i already said after 40 years its too big a conspiracy to cover up mate.

[piopat]

i too want everyone to make up their own minds (but based on the full facts) as i say everyone has their own mind and i hope will do their own thinking ,and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. but let us not forget that not just a president has died but a man also and husband and a father ,and he has been killed in full view as was lee oswald ,who also was a father of 2 little girls ,and others have died tho their deaths may be debateable and they to were fathers /hubands /brothers /sons. and be it 4 weeks/4months or 40 years these people were murdered and they still have daughters and sons and grandchildren alive who seek the truth(who deserve the truth not lies ) .god forbid it was someone in our family that was blamed wrongly ,we of course would also seek the truth to clear our family members name .
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK3jDyJOxC8"]YouTube- MARGUERITE OSWALD READS LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S LETTERS FROM RUSSIA (PART 1)[/ame]
this is lee oswalds mother reading letters from lee
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqbwwP64IuU"]YouTube- JFK assassination Lee Harvey Oswald daughter June Oswald interview[/ame]
lee oswalds daughter june and below lees daughter rachel and marina oswald
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT13K0ayeIU&feature=related"]YouTube- JFK assassination Lee Harvey Oswald daughter Rachel Oswald Porter Interview[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bo45aXZaqE&feature=related"]YouTube- Lee Harvey Oswald's Wife Speaks[/ame]
and as yet i havent heard or been shown any proof and evidence backing this up by anyone (willing to argue their case and show proof as to to lee oswalds guilt) ,yet people still say he is gulty.
all it takes for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing (edmund burke).