Website with picture of the evil Jon Venables

[Shady]

knew godwins law would raise its head somewhere in this thread

[MrFug]

knew godwins law would raise its head somewhere in this thread

Indeed - It was hardly an arbitrary comparison though, he sounded like the fuhrer himself.

[Shady]

in cases like this.. thats not exactly a bad thing...

[Kalipo]

knew godwins law would raise its head somewhere in this thread

For those not in the know;

Godwin's Law - "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely recognised codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

[SouthernComfort]

if a child maliciously throws a half ender intending to kill someone, then of course they are as culpable.. however, you cannot compare what them 2 did with that.. they ~~~~ing TORTURED HIM!!!!!!! THEY TOOK HIM FROM HIS MOM AND HAD HIM SCARED SHITLESS FOR ~~~~ KNOWS HOW LONG.
THEY THEN PROCEEDED TO TORTURE HIM, AND LEFT HIM FOR DEAD ON A RAILWAY LINE KNOWING WHAT WOULD HAPPEN NEXT!
Whether you agree or not.. they DESERVE a similiar fate

All I can do is compare, cases like this are so rare no one really knows how to handle them. As a child with no boundaries what would you have been capable of?
If thats all you knew, how would you act?
Although rare in this country, there are cases in other parts of the world where children have carried out much more despicable acts.
Look at the children in the Congo, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe......., are they all evil?

[Shady]

again.. making wide ranging similes that have no comparison.. those countries are ~~~~ing war zones! where a lot of the time its kill or be killed.. these coonts grew up in liverpool! hardly the ~~~~ing same is it?

[SouthernComfort]

again.. making wide ranging similes that have no comparison.. those countries are ~~~~ing war zones! where a lot of the time its kill or be killed.. these coonts grew up in liverpool! hardly the ~~~~ing same is it?

The point is valid, as for your second point, matter of opinion.

[Bulld0g]

All I can do is compare, cases like this are so rare no one really knows how to handle them. As a child with no boundaries what would you have been capable of?
If thats all you knew, how would you act?
Although rare in this country, there are cases in other parts of the world where children have carried out much more despicable acts.
Look at the children in the Congo, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe......., are they all evil?

Your talking about what may be the norm in those parts of the world, a way of life everyone is brought up in.
are you suggesting those Two were brought up in isolation by evil parents and none of it is their fault.
You see kids brought up in a similar enviroment everyday and they don't kidnap and murder a baby. This has got nothing to do with enviroment and upbringing they are just plain evil. Was Brady and Hindley misguided, was society to blame for them. Is society to blame for every murderer, rapist and paedophile. It's something we see more and more these days, offenders being excused and society being blamed.

[SouthernComfort]

Inadvertently yes, everyone plays their role, not once did I say what they did wasn't wrong. My point is they were children and were not at the same level of understanding as you or I.
If they were evil I can't believe they were born that way, they were made into monsters.
It seems the majority of people here would have been quite happy to torture them to death, surely even you can see the irony of that statement.
I understand location may be a huge factor here just trying to think rationally, I agree the sentences were lenient but what else can you do?, murder them, where do you stop?.
Every parent who looses a child, everyone who looses a family member, a favourite pet, your prized car?
The reason I use those other examples is that it's all we really have to compare to, it clearly shows what people without boundaries are capable of thats all.

[Bulld0g]

Inadvertently yes, everyone plays their role, not once did I say what they did wasn't wrong. My point is they were children and were not at the same level of understanding as you or I.
If they were evil I can't believe they were born that way, they were made into monsters.
It seems the majority of people here would have been quite happy to torture them to death, surely even you can see the irony of that statement.
I understand location may be a huge factor here just trying to think rationally, I agree the sentences were lenient but what else can you do?, murder them, where do you stop?.
Every parent who looses a child, everyone who looses a family member, a favourite pet, your prized car?
The reason I use those other examples is that it's all we really have to compare to, it clearly shows what people without boundaries are capable of thats all.

What do you mean surely even i can see that, coont The sentences were less than lenient. Even when they were being interviewed they were given games consoles to play on between interviews and were handled with kid gloves throughout.
The very fact they were treated like innocent children from day one and given everything a lot of normal kids would never have after they were sentenced pissed people off. Add that to the fact that one of them has reoffended in the most despicable way and you can see why people hate them and the weak judicial system that's in place.
I don't expect children to have a level of understanding akin to an adult but do you really believe they didn't know what they were doing was wrong ?

[SouthernComfort]

What do you mean surely even i can see that, coont The sentences were less than lenient. Even when they were being interviewed they were given games consoles to play on between interviews and were handled with kid gloves throughout.
The very fact they were treated like innocent children from day one and given everything a lot of normal kids would never have after they were sentenced pissed people off. Add that to the fact that one of them has reoffended in the most despicable way and you can see why people hate them and the weak judicial system that's in place.
I don't expect children to have a level of understanding akin to an adult but do you really believe they didn't know what they were doing was wrong ?

Again comes back to boundaries, how many things did you do as a child you knew were wrong?
How many times did you lie?
How many things did you try to cover up?
Our jails are full of people living 'cushy' lives who were fully aware of their actions. Many of them, most here would struggle to do anything about.
Like i have said, easy to say what you would do unless in that situation.

[Bulld0g]

Again comes back to boundaries, how many things did you do as a child you knew were wrong?
How many times did you lie?
How many things did you try to cover up?
Our jails are full of people living 'cushy' lives who were fully aware of their actions. Many of them, most here would struggle to do anything about.
Like i have said, easy to say what you would do unless in that situation.

Ok m8 i'll agree to disagree, obviously your a sympathiser for the guilty and i have none for those Two evil bastards.

[MrFug]

I think it's ridiculous to say that children are 'born evil'. It's a simple-minded, absurd idea advanced by people who simply can't comprehend the actions of others, and fail to appreciate the confluence of factors that cause such actions - the 'born evil' notion is simply a lazy, half-witted fallback.

Yes, people are born genetically predisposed to certain tendancies, but this doesn't mean that their future is mapped out and they'll inevitably succumb to some inherent destructive behaviour.

Ultimatley, what defines us is how we interpret and respond to the external influences during our upbringing. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but lets be honest, it's evident in society and clearly observable in the communities we live in: bad parents create bad kids. Yet parenting is just one factor, albeit a prominent one, in shaping our personalities.

Would Jon Venables have killed a child had he been raised in a leafy suburb of England by professionals who lavished love and affection on him?

I see this so patently in Northern Ireland. The vast majority of young men who join the IRA are from hardened republican areas, and likewise, loyalist recruits are raised in staunchly loyalist areas. Had the same individuals been raised in politcally neutral, middle-class esates I have no doubt their lives would have followed a very different path.

Nobody knows why those two boys choose to murder Jamie Bulger. However, we can be sure of one thing, whatever compelled them to commit this horrible act, they weren't born with it.

[Bulld0g]

I think it's ridiculous to say that children are 'born evil'. It's a simple-minded, absurd idea advanced by people who simply can't comprehend the actions of others, and fail to appreciate the confluence of factors that cause such actions - the 'born evil' notion is simply a lazy, half-witted fallback.

Yes, people are born genetically predisposed to certain tendancies, but this doesn't mean that their future is mapped out and they'll inevitably succumb to some inherent destructive behaviour.

Ultimatley, what defines us is how we interpret and respond to the external influences during our upbringing. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but lets be honest, it's evident in society and clearly observable in the communities we live in: bad parents create bad kids. Yet parenting is just one factor, albeit a prominent one, in shaping our personalities.

Would Jon Venables have killed a child had he been raised in a leafy suburb of England by professionals who lavished love and affection on him?

I see this so patently in Northern Ireland. The vast majority of young men who join the IRA are from hardened republican areas, and likewise, loyalist recruits are raised in staunchly loyalist areas. Had the same individuals been raised in politcally neutral, middle-class esates I have no doubt their lives would have followed a very different path.

Nobody knows why those two boys choose to murder Jamie Bulger. However, we can be sure of one thing, whatever compelled them to commit this horrible act, they weren't born with it.

I'd like to read your paper on these findings, i'm assuming your an expert. Seeing as you have determined people with certain views are half wits and people who live in leafy suburbs are incapable of murder as opposed to those brought up on council estates. At least i've got a good excuse now if i decide to murder someone, i'm a halfwit who was born in a non leafy suburb so it's societies fault.

[SouthernComfort]

I think it's ridiculous to say that children are 'born evil'. It's a simple-minded, absurd idea advanced by people who simply can't comprehend the actions of others, and fail to appreciate the confluence of factors that cause such actions - the 'born evil' notion is simply a lazy, half-witted fallback.

Yes, people are born genetically predisposed to certain tendancies, but this doesn't mean that their future is mapped out and they'll inevitably succumb to some inherent destructive behaviour.

Ultimatley, what defines us is how we interpret and respond to the external influences during our upbringing. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but lets be honest, it's evident in society and clearly observable in the communities we live in: bad parents create bad kids. Yet parenting is just one factor, albeit a prominent one, in shaping our personalities.

Would Jon Venables have killed a child had he been raised in a leafy suburb of England by professionals who lavished love and affection on him?

I see this so patently in Northern Ireland. The vast majority of young men who join the IRA are from hardened republican areas, and likewise, loyalist recruits are raised in staunchly loyalist areas. Had the same individuals been raised in politcally neutral, middle-class esates I have no doubt their lives would have followed a very different path.

Nobody knows why those two boys choose to murder Jamie Bulger. However, we can be sure of one thing, whatever compelled them to commit this horrible act, they weren't born with it.

The response of an educated law student, thank you, I'll say it again, any one of the adults that day could have prevented it.
How those people acted on that day played a role, how the people before acted played a role, how we react plays a role.
The N.I. example is a good one, a place full of killers, hopefully not all of them are evil.