Website with picture of the evil Jon Venables

[Bulld0g]

The response of an educated law student, thank you, I'll say it again, any one of the adults that day could have prevented it.
How those people acted on that day played a role, how the people before acted played a role, how we react plays a role.
The N.I. example is a good one, a place full of killers, hopefully not all of them are evil.

They could have prevented it themselves by stopping it, I don't think for one moment it was obvious to anyone the child was being kidnapped. The witnesses have stated they thought he was one of the lads baby brother. I think you should review your last post and think about it, is Northern Ireland a place full of killers ? I know irish people who have never hurt anyone.

[SouthernComfort]

They could have prevented it themselves by stopping it, I don't think for one moment it was obvious to anyone the child was being kidnapped. The witnesses have stated they thought he was one of the lads baby brother. I think you should review your last post and think about it, is Northern Ireland a place full of killers ? I know irish people who have never hurt anyone.

Surely you know the facts of the case?
As for my second point I stand by it, I didn't say everyone but there are plenty.

[fireblade1]

should have shot the ~~~~ers bigtime!!

fireblade.

[MrFug]

I wasn't calling you a half-wit. I apologise if I came across that way. I was trying get the point across that the notion that anyone is 'born evil' is grossly misguided.

I'm from Northern Ireland. I'm also from a council estate. I've know people who were murdered, and I've known people who committed murder. When I made the comments about council estates and leafy suburbs, I admit I was generalising but there is irrefutable evidence that poverty breeds crime. I've seen it first hand on so many occasions. I'm not saying we're all morally blind because we come from poor backgrounds but there is significant statistical evidence to support the proposition that children from poor backgrounds are more likely to pursue a life of crime, or make no worthwhile contributions to society.

[Bulld0g]

I never took it personal m8 Whilst criminals may more likely pursue a life of crime if they come from a poor background it doesn't mean they do.

[MrFug]

I never took it personal m8 Whilst criminals may more likely pursue a life of crime if they come from a poor background it doesn't mean they do.

Agreed. I think this is just a sensitive subject. Everyone has strong views. I actually agree that justice wasn't done in the Bulger case. It smacks of injustice when a baby is horribly murdered, and the murderers are free to live their adult lives sheltered at the expense of the state. However we can't go around lynching people. If we did, the country would soon descend into anarchy!

When these boys were convicted, there was overwhelming public revulsion and a general feeling of hatred, and rightly so, towards them. If the public had got their way, the boys would have been publicly executed. Imagine the pictures of that scene today. Two ten year-old children hanging from the gallows whilst a baying mob, faces contorted in hate, cheering as the children drop through the trap-doors and their necks break.

Should we be proud of those hypothetical pictures? Or should we feel ashamed?

[SouthernComfort]

We lead by example. I think many people forget this.

[Bulld0g]

The whole debate is centred around the fact those Two got off lightly, people say they would kill them but i doubt many would given the chance, even though now they're both adults.
However if you were a relative of a child who was murdered like the baby was then maybe you would kill them given the chance, who knows.
As Southerncomfort said, you don't know how you would react in a given situation until it affects you. Saying what you would like to do and doing it is Two different things.

[SouthernComfort]

The whole debate is centred around the fact those Two got off lightly, people say they would kill them but i doubt many would given the chance, even though now they're both adults.
However if you were a relative of a child who was murdered like the baby was then maybe you would kill them given the chance, who knows.
As Southerncomfort said, you don't know how you would react in a given situation until it affects you. Saying what you would like to do and doing it is Two different things.

If I could thank you twice I would, best post this whole thread.

[Lainie]

whether they were born evil or became evil is irrelivant in my opinion. what they did WAS evil and thats a fact plain and simple. they got off extremely lightly an now enjoy life without a care in the world or an ounce of remorse. poor jamies family esp his mum will never get over what they did and if they have a life sentence then so should the perpetrators.

[MrFug]

whether they were born evil or became evil is irrelivant in my opioion. what they did WAS evil and thats a fact plain and simple. they got off extremely lightly an now enjoy life without a care in thew world or an ounce of remorse. poor jamies family esp his mum will never get over what they did and if they have a life sentence then so should the perpetrators.

I agree with you Lainie, but I think people use the word 'evil' to describe actions that they don't understand. I mean, what actually is evil? It's a difficult concept to define. It's not quantifiable or substantial. It's a very human construction that only exists in our subjective interpretation of human behaviour.

I think there is a reason behind every human action. Some cases are easy to explain - A man sleeps with my wife and I kill him in a jealous rage - A padeophile abuses someone close to me and I kill him for vengeance. At the other end of the scale we have the Bulger case: Heinous crimes that we simply can't explain no matter how hard we try, so we call them 'evil', like some mystical, supernatual force compels them. Yet even the most profoundly immoral, depraved acts are the products of some other explainable influences or circumstances. The boys who murdered poor Jamie were badly raised, there's no doubt about that. They were subjected to varying degrees of abuse and were deprived of affection. Could this go someway to explaining the lack of empathy they exhibited? Also, they were impressionable children - undeveloped, irrational, not capable of reason the way you and I are. They may have watched violent movies (I'm not 100% sure if they did), and were seduced by the gratutious violence displayed. Maybe the thought of killing excited them? Were they affected by psychological problems? Sociopathic tendancies? Did one boy exert a commanding influence over the other? Did all these factors lead to the devastating consequences for the Bulger family?

I think to be honest I'm just thinking out loud in this post. Trying to make sense of it all myself. No one is right or wrong on this thread. I guess the point I'm trying to make, in a long-winded fashion, is that everything we do is in a series of sequential actions and reactions.

Sorry for blabbering.

[SouthernComfort]

Sounds reasonable and concise.

[xant14]

I agree with you Lainie, but I think people use the word 'evil' to describe actions that they don't understand. I mean, what actually is evil? It's a difficult concept to define. It's not quantifiable or substantial. It's a very human construction that only exists in our subjective interpretation of human behaviour.

.

What exactly is evil?
My little one kicked me in the face from the swing in the back garden, immediately apologetic and remorseful.
Them two twats, dropped an iron bar on his head then rammed stolen batteries in his mouth.

One is evil, one isn't.

[janobi]

Ah so it's an observation now ? you observed they were poor souls, the real poor souls are the baby's parents, having to live their lives knowing the full facts of what happened to their baby. The two monsters are not poor souls at all, infact one has shown he's into paedophilia and thats after all the mollycoddling the coont got from day one.

Being from the same place as the Bulgers are you hear more from friends of their family that you know so you don't need the press to tell you what they want in order to sell papers. You have one big failing as far as i can see and that is you really believe THEY are poor souls.

As far as it being egotistical of me to say DK is the best forum around, it is I have and still am a member of most of the forums and whilst i still go on them frequently, there is none come even close to this

So your only argument is that I called them poor souls? lmfao. I would call any child who had suffered a poor soul.

Also you have obviously been privvy to certain information, that the rest of us have not, being from Liverpool, im sure the rumour mill was working overtime.

And I would question your comment on this forum being the best, it may be your perception/opinion that its the best, to which you are entitled too. But as with anything that is the best, there is always something better around the corner.

I had never heard of that godins law thing either, interesting theory, and I comment Mr Fug, for his well spoken, and well thought out arguments and points.

[Canker_Canison]

Yet even the most profoundly immoral, depraved acts are the products of some other explainable influences or circumstances. The boys who murdered poor Jamie were badly raised, there's no doubt about that. They were subjected to varying degrees of abuse and were deprived of affection. Could this go someway to explaining the lack of empathy they exhibited? Also, they were impressionable children - undeveloped, irrational, not capable of reason the way you and I are.

~~~~ my head hurts after reading everything on this thread.

MrFug has probably came the closest to explaining some of my thoughts & understanding of the how's & why's this happened.

How many of us, as kids, killed insects & bugs? I did. From flies to caterpillers & worms, I tortured them.... Why? Curiosity, not knowing any better or was I evil?
But I knew the difference between a bug & a mammal, I could never knowingly hurt anything bigger than a bug.

These two were underdeveloped in their sense of morality & behaviour. Add to this there constant truancy, stealing & lack of punishment for this. It gave them an almost untouchable feeling, they could do anything.
To me, their twisted reality merely jumped from insects & bugs to something unthinkable to every well adjusted human being. (But well adjusted to us may differ wildly from those in other areas of the world.)
Their actions when taking James reminded me of the type of naughty things done by kids that would get them grounded. They lacked the full understanding of the gravity for the situation & the full repercussions of what they were planning.

Their punishment was far too light. But they spent their most informative years locked up, not developing bonds with children their own age...other than those already locked up for various crimes.

There is no hope of either of these individuals from ever living a normal life. There will always be issues with their behaviour.


Michael Jackson blamed a lack of a normal childhood for his association with young boys.
This is not a defense for any individuals behaviour, only a possible factor behind the psyche that needs to be examined.
Vanables will always be trying to capture the childhood he's missed. But the way in which he will be trying to do this risks too much for him to be let loose in the public.