Bedroom tax, new thread !

[thered]

The Benefit will be reduced and the extra will have to be paid............"A Tax is something you pay"
So It Is A Tax !!!
"Housing Benefit is free money towards rent"..........How is it "Free Money" to those that have worked all their lives and paid into the system ?

Don't get me wrong TheRed I understand what you are getting at but not every shoe fits the same foot.
It is the scroungers that need to be targeted not the genuine and needy.

Its a reduction of benefit, that means anyone who wants to stay in a home they have lived in all their lives will be asked to contribute if its to big for them.

I would argue that most people who have worked all their lives have bought their homes or should have done.

If you have a debilitating illnessess you can get disability allowance a car and a carer, is it too much to ask for for a person to pay a small contribution towards the rent and maintenance

You could also argue that if people are struggling with illness it would be beneficial to them to have a smaller place, what good is a 4 bedder really to a 70 year old on her own for instance.

There is no set rules everyone's situation is different, i know in general the working families bought there homes, i know there is exceptions and people who paid full rent could have bought there homes 5 times over.

Is it too much to ask people to contribute a little, i think not

and i also think that if the poorest people did not waste so much money on fags, scratchcards and takeaways i could sympathasize a little more.

Thats a generalisation probably does not apply to everyone but its certainly the norm where i live

You obviously believe they are doing wrong so why don't you report them ?

Not really my thing, plus couple are people i know well

But if they rent out their own home then it is no longer their primary home and secondly the rent received negates the expense of the "second" home so therefore the expenses are either reduced or no longer required.
So the expenses claimed are therefore false.

Not talking about expenses i said if anyone fiddled them they should be treat same as benefit fraud. The expenses should be work incurred cost only imo. The rent of home is another issue and classed as taxable they may even be paying mortgage on them who knows

but instead of moaning about mps, become one

They are easy target cant do right for wrong, always someone hurt

What do we actually want in this country unlimited benefit?

Everyone seems to forget that the only people who pay for this country are private sector workers

Not your politicians, dwp ,your school teachers,doctors, your nhs workers, your councils workers, the fire, the police the army none of these people contribute 1p towards this country its tax payer cash in full, they merely give some back.

Revenue in UK is from private companies and private sector workers only

You think these people should pay even more tax to build another million homes or whatever so that people can live for free in homes that are too big for them

You have to draw lines somewhere, books have to balance and i think a contribution towards your housing is fair if its to big for your needs

why should 6 people be stuck in a 2 bedder because the old dear in a 4 bedder over the road wont move?

[rds60h]

1).. I would argue that most people who have worked all their lives have bought their homes or should have done.

2).. If you have a debilitating illnessess you can get disability allowance a car and a carer, is it too much to ask for for a person to pay a small contribution towards the rent and maintenance

3).. There is no set rules everyone's situation is different, i know in general the working families bought there homes, i know there is exceptions and people who paid full rent could have bought there homes 5 times over.

4).. Is it too much to ask people to contribute a little, i think not

5).. and i also think that if the poorest people did not waste so much money on fags, scratchcards and takeaways i could sympathasize a little more.
Thats a generalisation probably does not apply to everyone but its certainly the norm where i live


6).. Not really my thing, plus couple are people i know well



7).. Everyone seems to forget that the only people who pay for this country are private sector workers
Not your politicians, dwp ,your school teachers,doctors, your nhs workers, your councils workers, the fire, the police the army none of these people contribute 1p towards this country its tax payer cash in full, they merely give some back.
Revenue in UK is from private companies and private sector workers only

No.1.. That is an opinion not an arguement and is certainly not fact.
No.2.. Disability Living Allowance is what it says an Allowance to enable a Disabled Person a reasonable quality of life because being disabled usually means that the cost of everyday life incurs more costs for a Disabled Person. And the payment is in increments dependant upon the severity of the disability.
Disability Living Allowance can also be claimed by disabled people in Full Time Employment and these people may also qualify for extra Tax Credits in relation to the disability so this benefit is not just for Unemployed.
They do not get a free car as many people think, those who qualify for the upper level of DLA can qualify for a Mobility Allowance which they can if they so wish use to rent a Mobility Car.
It should also be remembered that not all disabilities are visable or even Physical, so it could be someone like that who many assume do not need a Mobility Car or indeed it may be the Carer driving.
Not all Disabled qualify for a Carer, for those that do require a Carer they can have a nominated person to be their Carer. It is the Carer who receives the Carers Allowance which is about ?50 per week, for this the Carer may be required to provided the Disabled Person with help to feed and dress them, to provide medical help such as administering medication, changing bandages, clearing up mess caused by incontinence or bowel problems, lifting them up and all sorts of other physically challenging chores 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
How much do you think this would cost if the same service was provided by a "professional" ?

No.3.. In "general" working families did not buy their homes. Over a Third of housing in fact 35% is Rental property. The percentage of Unemployed in the UK is just under 8% So this means that over a Quarter of UK housing is Rented by Working People.

No.4.. Yes it is too much to ask SOME people to pay a little, particularly if they are the genuine cases who have already paid in a lot !!

No.5.. As you say you are generalising, and those you mention may well be the ones defrauding the system.

No.6.. You are decrying people who are genuinely on benefits or on disability, yet you say it is "not your thing" to call time on those that defraud the system and "plus a couple you know well" So it is alright for someone you know to defraud the system but it is wrong for a genuine claimant to be in receipt of their needed benefit !!!

No.7.. I really don't know where you got that twisted notion from. Is it your thinking that because the working people you mention are employed by the state, government, local authority etc in some cases; not all. That because their income is funded by Taxation that they therefore do not contribute ?
Also because of that a Private Sector worker is the only one fully funding the Taxation System ?
If there were not all those "Public Sector" workers do you really think the Private Sector would survive ? Do you suppose that they do not puchase the goods and services that the Private Sector provide ?
By your thinking that would also make the Private Sector funded by the Public Sector, so even that theory falls in on its self.

As I keep saying Target the Scroungers and Fraudsters Not the Genuine people.

[thered]

No.1.. That is an opinion not an arguement and is certainly not fact.
No.2.. Disability Living Allowance is what it says an Allowance to enable a Disabled Person a reasonable quality of life because being disabled usually means that the cost of everyday life incurs more costs for a Disabled Person. And the payment is in increments dependant upon the severity of the disability.
Disability Living Allowance can also be claimed by disabled people in Full Time Employment and these people may also qualify for extra Tax Credits in relation to the disability so this benefit is not just for Unemployed.
They do not get a free car as many people think, those who qualify for the upper level of DLA can qualify for a Mobility Allowance which they can if they so wish use to rent a Mobility Car.
It should also be remembered that not all disabilities are visable or even Physical, so it could be someone like that who many assume do not need a Mobility Car or indeed it may be the Carer driving.
Not all Disabled qualify for a Carer, for those that do require a Carer they can have a nominated person to be their Carer. It is the Carer who receives the Carers Allowance which is about ?50 per week, for this the Carer may be required to provided the Disabled Person with help to feed and dress them, to provide medical help such as administering medication, changing bandages, clearing up mess caused by incontinence or bowel problems, lifting them up and all sorts of other physically challenging chores 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
How much do you think this would cost if the same service was provided by a "professional" ?

No.3.. In "general" working families did not buy their homes. Over a Third of housing in fact 35% is Rental property. The percentage of Unemployed in the UK is just under 8% So this means that over a Quarter of UK housing is Rented by Working People.

No.4.. Yes it is too much to ask SOME people to pay a little, particularly if they are the genuine cases who have already paid in a lot !!

No.5.. As you say you are generalising, and those you mention may well be the ones defrauding the system.

No.6.. You are decrying people who are genuinely on benefits or on disability, yet you say it is "not your thing" to call time on those that defraud the system and "plus a couple you know well" So it is alright for someone you know to defraud the system but it is wrong for a genuine claimant to be in receipt of their needed benefit !!!

No.7.. I really don't know where you got that twisted notion from. Is it your thinking that because the working people you mention are employed by the state, government, local authority etc in some cases; not all. That because their income is funded by Taxation that they therefore do not contribute ?
Also because of that a Private Sector worker is the only one fully funding the Taxation System ?
If there were not all those "Public Sector" workers do you really think the Private Sector would survive ? Do you suppose that they do not puchase the goods and services that the Private Sector provide ?
By your thinking that would also make the Private Sector funded by the Public Sector, so even that theory falls in on its self.

As I keep saying Target the Scroungers and Fraudsters Not the Genuine people.

so if the public sector buys goods from the private sector where does that money come from public sector doesnt generate any money?

It provides essential services, no doubt which is why we have taxes

In terms of balancing goverment finance its a huge drain, if anything needs to happen in this country its the private sector needs a huge lift. We need to start making and shipping overseas

Whether than can be achieved is beyond me cheap workers in china ect make it very hard for us to compete

Id like to know where you get your figures from, many rentals are ex council houses bought anyway

and official unemployment figures

only show jsa

Not single mums,esa, pensioners,incapacity benefit or income support, part time workers on housing benefit

You are entitled to your opinion as i am mine, mine is its fine it should be introduced

One thing i do think is pensioners should be included as they have more money than jsa claimants

It seems though as pensioners are more likely to vote they want to keep them sweet

[rds60h]

Britain as a manufacturing nation was killed off over 30 years ago and the reality is that it will never return to that.
The arguement about Public and Private Sector is senseless because there are so many examples of so called Private Sector "industries" being funded by or proped up by or saved by Public money.
And as I said before neither the Public Sector or the Private Sector can survive and or thrive without the other sides input.
The figures I used are the official government figures.
You are now suggesting that pensioners are also targeted because they are slightly better off than the poorest sector.
Life is not about bringing everyone and everything down, it should be about raising everybodies standards an making life better for everyone.
As you say we are all entitled to our opinions and there is no doubt that everyone will never agree with everyone else.
On the point of opinions, I am of the opinion that the real reason for the "bedroom tax" is to provide more family homes for the expected further influx of migrants from the EU, thus making those who have paid into the system pay even more to those who have never ( & many never will) paid in to the system, and so is just a smokescreen to hide the fact.

[thered]

Britain as a manufacturing nation was killed off over 30 years ago and the reality is that it will never return to that.
The arguement about Public and Private Sector is senseless because there are so many examples of so called Private Sector "industries" being funded by or proped up by or saved by Public money.
And as I said before neither the Public Sector or the Private Sector can survive and or thrive without the other sides input.
The figures I used are the official government figures.
You are now suggesting that pensioners are also targeted because they are slightly better off than the poorest sector.
Life is not about bringing everyone and everything down, it should be about raising everybodies standards an making life better for everyone.
As you say we are all entitled to our opinions and there is no doubt that everyone will never agree with everyone else.
On the point of opinions, I am of the opinion that the real reason for the "bedroom tax" is to provide more family homes for the expected further influx of migrants from the EU, thus making those who have paid into the system pay even more to those who have never ( & many never will) paid in to the system, and so is just a smokescreen to hide the fact.

Doesnt change fact that public money comes from private sector even if some companies do rely on government money it all derives every penny from other private sector employees and companies

Government doesnt have money to buy anything it might bail people out with made up money but they are expected to pay it back

Only way standards will improve is if we can build up the private sector so that it works at much higher levels than the public sector whether or not it can ever be achieved i dont know it doesnt look good though tbh. Technology seems to be our only avenue with regards real manufacture, as you said industry as it was is dead too many cheap foreign factories seen to that

We are just a service sector really and outlook for future generation looks pretty crap. But you can only run a country on what you can rake in and what you can borrow

Not everyone can be happy.

It may get mothballed who knows, it may not be around very long anyway im pretty sure it would be in labours election speil to axe it if they get in

The only thing is there idea is more public sector, more money, less cuts

where does the money come from, tax the rich is most poupular but rich tend to hide money i think when they raised the tax to 50% or whatever they actually got less

Its tough economy it doesnt just rely on the UK it relies heavily on other countries having money too. Not just us having austerity measures other countries too

IMO we live in a pretty good country overall you cant please everyone all the time, be thankfull for what you get, some countries cant get food,water, medicine or medical attention

We seem to forget how easy we have it

[rds60h]

As we have both said we have our opinions and we will have to agree to disagree, and I think the Public/Private Sector stance we both have are poles apart.
I agree with you that our only saviour on the manufacturing side of thing is Technology but even then I believe our future in Technology is only in research and advancement. As I strongly believe that China will "steal" all new idea Technology and reproduce the items in larger numbers and at a much smaller unit price.
As for the economy I think we could discuss that for ever and a day and agree with each other on some points and totally disagree on others, but we have digressed from the thread subject of the "bedroom tax".
I will say thank you to you for some of the points you made, and thank you for the discussion which I believe we have both managed to put our views across on and have not slagged each other off in the process.
So thank you for healthy discussion.

[tshirtman]

This policy is definitely not a one fits all solution,

it's now been discovered people who foster children will have to pay it, because the council have decided that bedrooms aren't being used on a permanent basis,

the mother of two soldiers who are fighting overseas(for this country) will have to pay it because her sons are away for periods of time,

disabled people who need a bigger house so it can be adapted for wheelchair use, will have to pay it,

it's obviously hasn't been thought out properly, and will lead court cases, much like the work program did,

but what do you expect when the country is being run by Tim but slightly dim, and his chums

[Saltire]

Surley its againt the law to take away peoples heating and eating money even if it has to go to the european court of human rights ??

Anyway, I will keep you posted on this, in talks now with the leader of the Lib Dems in Scotland (willie rennie) and they are trying to find a way to kick the tories butts on this matter as the lib dems dont seem keen on it in the slightest, I can only wait and see what I hear back, if anything, but they defo aint happy with it either.

[rds60h]

Saltire, perhaps something that they could use as a precedent is that if a person is on benefits and it is paid into their bank account then they cannot be charged bank charges because this will cause hardship.
As usual this is an action that receives very little promotion from either DWP or the Banks, but is an option that is available.

[Snowy79]

The Government is not taking their heating or eating money away. They're still getting the same money for that. All they are doing is charging for a service that in theory the tenant is not using so doesn't need. If they need it as per legal guidelines the Government will increase the housing benefit accordingly.

Maybe the tax payer should take the Government to court as part of their tax goes to paying child benefit and they don't have children or subsidising Universities but they don't go to University etc.

As for the European court it's a tricky one as I'm sure the UK has more generous housing benefits than the majority of the EU members. Even if they ruled against it all that will happen is the Council/Government will increase council tax or reduce sevices further to recoup the money. You win on one hand and lose on another.

In an ideal World maybe those that have been fortunate enough to have provided a property that is larger than they needed by the tax payer would be thankfull instead of trying to be a further burden. There will come a time when it's no longer worth being a tax payer and all that will happen is the benefit burden will be so large that public services will become a luxury.

[gmb45]

all of it

so a single person whos in a 2 bed council/housing association flat GIVEN to them by the council/housing associtaiion whos only getting jsa ? 70 odd a week (and there will be a lot of them in this category) should have to pay this ? that will leave them less than ?60 week to live on, there is no way any one should be paying this if nothing more suitable to their needs can be found end off, and the gov knows there aint enuff suitable properties, easy money, every one should refuse to pay, then see how the gov handles the chokka block courts, might see sense then, ive have talked to a few peeps in this bed tax situation and all are going to refuse to pay, prefering to get their point across in court, this bed tax job will not be dun a dusted for a long time yet.

[Snowy79]

I agree the implimentation of this sucks. No way should anyone currently in any housing situation be affected by this if there is no suitable accomodation available but before dragging it throught the courts and making the lawyers money read this link first. Discretionary housing payments (DHP) - Shelter England If you google discretionary housing payments for your relevent area most councils have all the information you'll need. The Government has covered it's arse by setting over ?150 million aside for hardship cases.

[tornado]

Some bedrooms are not really big enough and there are ways round this,Combat the Bedroom Tax

[thered]

Some bedrooms are not really big enough and there are ways round this,Combat the Bedroom Tax

Get the plasterboard out


Im still all for it tbh but i do agree that there does need to be some safeguards in place

A working family have too pay more money to live in a 3 bedder than a 2 and more money still for a 4 bedder why should dss be any different if they dont need it, they either pay or move it is a choice

I understand that there may be difficulties moving people but not everyone needs 1 bedroom property, most will already have property anyway a lot of the time it me be as simple as swapping homes

I do think there does need to be safeguards in place though if there is no available people to switch with the tax is put off until then.

I also think the point tshirtman raised about kids in army is very valid what does happen if your kids in army or go off to uni every term do they have no bedroom to move back into

The principals i do agree with but in practice there needs to be concessions.

I find it strange how pensioners are not in with this they live in normally bigger houses than they need and also get almost double what someone on jsa get. They also usually spend less

Is it because they tend to vote and half younger people dont even know who prime minister is, im not sure

and before i get moaned at for bashing old grannys now i have a gran she lives in her house that is too big for her, she is a clean freak and very indepandant she has a fairly big garden and is really starting to struggle. She refuses nearly all help as she likes it done her way she is too old to change

I think a smaller property and smaller garden would help her immensely

[tshirtman]

I hope this turns out to be Cameron's poll tax.

I have found one group of people who are exempt

The families of serving prisoners are exempt

think of it a different way, this policy will fund tax cuts for millionaires.