Tottenham in flames as riot follows protest

[rapscallion]

Not knowing who their dad is is pretty sad really, and is not their fault. The whole mentality is scum from the outset. Young girls getting pregnant with the very real prospect of no dad in sight is just a colossal strain on the coffers of UK plc. It then creates teenage thugs who have no respect for their parent/s because the parent hasn't a chance of their child witnessing normal family life. Of course there are some girls that manage wonderfully on their own with their child, and of course some kids are raised by both the young parents. But my guess is that those kids would not be a million miles near to the troubles witnessed over the last few days.


It's very noticeable to me the very low numbers seen of Pakistani or Indian kids involved in these scumbag riots. I firmly believe that family ties in both of these communities plays a big part. Of course this is a generalisation.

and Bradford and Burnley never happened.

[rapscallion]

From Sammp
Kevin Sampson
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 10 August 2011 13.39 BST
Article history

Firefighters hosing down a burning building in Liverpool, 1981. Photograph: Sipa Press / Rex Features
By the second night of rioting you could see the flames from miles away. A phosphorescent glow backlit Liverpool 8, adding a weird beauty to the madness unfolding. My pals and I watched the smoke pluming upwards and outwards, each one of us wild-eyed with excitement at the hue and cry. "Come on," I said. "Let's see if we can get a bit closer ?"

That was 30 years ago, but it could just have well have been last night ? with one hugely significant difference. The events that unfolded in Granby, Liverpool 8 in July 1981 (nobody called it Toxteth in those days) were triggered by the groundless arrest and manhandling of a local man, Leroy Cooper, by the loathed Special Patrol Group. That was the spark that ignited the simmering resentment that had brewing in Granby, and which developed into the most prolonged and destructive riots ever witnessed on the UK mainland. Toxteth 81 was not so much a race riot as an uprising against longstanding police malpractice. The troubles that have revisited the area these last few nights are nothing of the kind, though a similar kind of wild-eyed youth are once more in the thick of it.

In all the hours and pages of reportage since rioting returned to our cities last weekend, not one commentator seems to have touched upon the sole unifying factor that fuels and drives such unrest ? excitement, fun, teenage kicks. In 1981 I could have cited unemployment (check), low-income, single-parent family (check), experience of police brutality (check) as factors in my participation, but none of the above even remotely came into my thinking then and I doubt it is stoking today's unrest, either.

I went along in 1981 because I was swept away by the mind-blowing buzz of mob mayhem. There's no justifying that ? in the crudest terms such behaviour is quite simply wrong ? but try telling that to a 15-year-old on a mountain bike. To him or her, it's like a Wii game come to life ? a hyper-real version of GTA. You taunt the police until they chase you, then you leg it and regroup. Some of the more radical kids will throw rocks and set cars and wheelie bins alight to get them going, but sooner or later the "bizzies" (police) will charge.

About 7.30pm on Tuesday evening I walked from Smithdown Lane on the fringes of Toxteth all the way down the hill to the city centre. There was barely anybody out on the streets. The city centre, suddenly the subject of blanket media coverage in the expectation of further rioting, had closed down early and people were battening down the hatches. As darkness fell, the first police sirens of the evening could be heard, and then the relentless whirring of the surveillance helicopter. Mobs began to assemble, but what was noticeable were the groups of youth workers and community leaders quickly on the scene to reason with youngsters.

In spite of isolated incidents and the now symbolic sight of purple wheelie bins ablaze, there was nothing one could describe as insurrection. The police were visible when necessary, but seemingly content to work in tandem with the youth leaders, too. If it hadn't have been for the phalanx of reporters, no one would have known anything out of the ordinary had happened.

Speaking to reporters, one of the Toxteth youth workers, Jimmy Jagney, said that while he and his colleagues had been able to quell and disperse kids they knew well from around and about Liverpool 8, they had also identified two large gangs of youths, none of whom they recognised. His assumption was that the youths had assembled in the hope of opportunistic looting, and his team quickly advised them to take off, and take their ambitions for notoriety elsewhere. Just as myself and my mates did in 1981, they felt a bit foolish when confronted and slunk away home.

We live in a time of instant news. Whether it is camera crews sitting in medieval European squares as they wait for football hooligans to get drunk and provide rowdy footage, or plucky frontline reporters with pinhole cameras in their lapel as they maraud with the youth, our media suppliers are fanning the flames. They're making a case, and making a story that doesn't ? or needn't ? exist. If our politicians wants to know what's really going on, they should give Jimmy Jagney a call. In the meantime, nothing to see here ? move along.

[justy22]

Somehow I can't imagine those scum sitting at home watching the Poiliticians on TV and discussing the ins and out of society.

Its attitudes like yours thats helped create this mess

[Shady]

what attitude? that the people doing this are scum?
scummy is as scummy does... they ARE scum

[garry1312]

national service ? being sent off to fight illegal wars,wheres the sense in that ?
we have kids breeding kids theres only so much a kid of 21 or so can teach a kid
we have a whole generation of kids brought up by kids,this has to be part of the problem surely
and snowy i cant believe that you are now bigging up sikhs asians turks etc when previously you state that immigration has played a major factor in the unrest
imho thatcher has a ~~~~in lot to answer for
she started the downfall of this country by tearing apart various communities and instilling values like ~~~~ everyone else im out for me and me only,,i want more,i want a big house big car designer clothes etc etc sod the rest of society im in it for me
and slowly this mantra has ~~~~ed this country up

I think you are totally wrong 'theres only so much a kid of 21 or so can teach a kid'. I am 24 and my partner is 20 and our son is 9 months old. I am in a good career, I earn a excellent wage, we have our own home in a nice private area, our own car (paid off), we pay our bills and we buy anything in cash with exception to our contract phones. We know what the difference is between right and wrong and that will be passed on to our son and I know for a fact that my son will never behave the way these idiots are behaving because he is being brought up to respect people, respect other peoples things and respect himself.

As for my partner she is a fantastic mother would do absolutely anything for our son, we both agree on the way our son should be brought up and the disipline used and putting our foot down firmly to greed, cheek, bullying....... and everything else we will come across in our life of being good parents!

[lagerland]

I dont think they'll sell, the scumbags dint want to pay for anything

Thats ok they will nick them anyway..................

[bobwill]

This soon got 100,000 signatures probably would have got a lot more if site was not down

The e-petition entitled ?Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits? has now passed the threshold of 100,000 signatures and has been passed to the Backbench Business Committee to consider for debate. It will continue to be available for signature once the site is re-opened.

[cablefreejunkie]

I think you are totally wrong 'theres only so much a kid of 21 or so can teach a kid'. I am 24 and my partner is 20 and our son is 9 months old. I am in a good career, I earn a excellent wage, we have our own home in a nice private area, our own car (paid off), we pay our bills and we buy anything in cash with exception to our contract phones. We know what the difference is between right and wrong and that will be passed on to our son and I know for a fact that my son will never behave the way these idiots are behaving because he is being brought up to respect people, respect other peoples things and respect himself.

As for my partner she is a fantastic mother would do absolutely anything for our son, we both agree on the way our son should be brought up and the disipline used and putting our foot down firmly to greed, cheek, bullying....... and everything else we will come across in our life of being good parents!

thats good to hear
but here in the uk we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in europe
and that cant be good to bring a child into this world when the parent hasnt even had say 10 years experience thamselves of living and as is so often the case the family ends up a broken one with the child being brought up without both parents present every day in there life
im not saying its the only reason but it must be part of the reason a lot of these youngsters go astray

[andy91]

Half the kids nowadays dont know how to boil an egg.
We have made things to easy for them yet they think they are hard done by.
If this was another country the riot police would have tear gassed the lot of them and took them out with batons no problems and unlucky if you was in the right place.
All this talk about how bad things are for them makes me sick.

Andy.

[super jumbe]

Originally Posted by Snowy79
Somehow I can't imagine those scum sitting at home watching the Poiliticians on TV and discussing the ins and out of society.




Our Govt always points a finger to some of the demonstration happening in Middle East that the Arab Govt is wrong, the public has rights to demonstrating against the Govt for reasons???????????.

So why talk the deferent language in UK that the rioters are scum, public are just fed up, the Govt is not listening and they are taking the matter in there own hands.

Look when these rioters come out of prison do you thing they are ever going to be a good citizen?????????????

[Lyrrad]

Originally Posted by Snowy79
Somehow I can't imagine those scum sitting at home watching the Poiliticians on TV and discussing the ins and out of society.




Our Govt always points a finger to some of the demonstration happening in Middle East that the Arab Govt is wrong, the public has rights to demonstrating against the Govt for reasons???????????.

So why talk the deferent language in UK that the rioters are scum, public are just fed up, the Govt is not listening and they are taking the matter in there own hands.

Look when these rioters come out of prison do you thing they are ever going to be a good citizen?????????????

I understand your sentiment, but truly if all of these people rioting in UK had to live the life of those demonstrating in Middle East they would then have a clearer idea of what 'to struggle' is all about.

[Lyrrad]

I think you are totally wrong 'theres only so much a kid of 21 or so can teach a kid'. I am 24 and my partner is 20 and our son is 9 months old. I am in a good career, I earn a excellent wage, we have our own home in a nice private area, our own car (paid off), we pay our bills and we buy anything in cash with exception to our contract phones. We know what the difference is between right and wrong and that will be passed on to our son and I know for a fact that my son will never behave the way these idiots are behaving because he is being brought up to respect people, respect other peoples things and respect himself.

As for my partner she is a fantastic mother would do absolutely anything for our son, we both agree on the way our son should be brought up and the disipline used and putting our foot down firmly to greed, cheek, bullying....... and everything else we will come across in our life of being good parents!

Hi mate

Excellent post.

You state I know for a fact that my son will never behave the way these idiots are behaving because he is being brought up to respect people, respect other peoples things and respect himself.

It's a fact, you know it and so should everyone else. I can only assume you were raised in a proper fashion, and what you are going to install in your child is just normality to you. Trust me when I say you will be tested on your words, but kids are a real blessing. It's your duty to do exactly as you state.

Sadly many parents have never experienced those things, and therefore find it very difficult to install those values in their kids.

Any 2 disrespectful fools can produce a baby, and the morons out on the street over the recent days more than likely have parents of that ilk. I think it stands to reason that the likelihood of a child being brought into this world under the these circumstances from younger parents is higher than from an older couple.

It's interesting how as 24 year old you categorise yourself or your 20 year old partner as being kids, where it is plain to see that you are both adult. I am sure that you would agree that when a 16 year old gives birth and there is no father on the scene it is a million miles from your scenario.

I once read in a Doctor's surgery the following:

No man on his death-bed ever said "I wished I spent more time in the office"

Enjoy your son and keep taking those pics. They go from baby to toddler to small boy in a flash.

[Snowy79]

Governments are only allowed to do things because of peoples actions or inactions. Half the people that spout anti this or anti that Governments can't have a sound understanding of what Politics is about. Governments are here to serve the population in the way they see fit, being human though they are also driven to look after their own interests.

They are voted in by a democratic policy where everyone of voting age has a say. We get the Government that we deserve either by voting them in or not getting off our arse and voting them out. Whose fault is it then when we get a shi+ Government?

Saying you don't vote because it is a waste of time is a cop out. It should be made compulsory to vote, that way the Governments would have to kiss everyones ars+ to get votes instead of bribing a targetted audience with benefits or tax cuts. Politicians aren't stupid. They know if there's an election coming up where to throw our money. Off course you will still get some who think it's against their human rights to be made to select a Government as we'll be denying them the right to have a fkin good moan when the wrong one gets elected.

[Snowy79]

I would love to see a complete breakdown of those arrested in the riots so the general public could have a good understanding and unbiased opinion of what type of individual carries out these actions.

We've all been guilty of blaming certain kinds within the community but as has been seen on the TV we've had a Teacher, Army recruit, Millionaires Daughter, wealthy students etc arrested, not your typical tracksuited uneducated youth.

[garry1312]

thats good to hear
but here in the uk we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in europe
and that cant be good to bring a child into this world when the parent hasnt even had say 10 years experience thamselves of living and as is so often the case the family ends up a broken one with the child being brought up without both parents present every day in there life
im not saying its the only reason but it must be part of the reason a lot of these youngsters go astray

Sorry still disagree obviously teens are not right but in your 20s why not. For instance my mum had me at 21 did i turn out wrong no did she or my dad turn out wrong no they are very succesful. To be a good parent you need to be a good person yourself you need to right from wrong and you need to make the right decisions. To blame a age is bullshit there are plenty of bad parents out there of all ages from teens to pensioners. I bet the youngsters rioting also have parents of middle age and older which are simply just wastes of space and bad parents.

I do agree that youngsters these days have it to easy its a joke and as someone else said half of them dont know basic cooking schools. I love cooking and enjoy it and can make some cracking dishes and one thing is for sure my son and future children will never eat all this frozen crap, take aways, mcdonalds and all that junk food but will eat home cooked meals. Thats where the problem is half these kids get microwave meals put down to them infront of the tv, never get a home cooked meal, not helping mum or dad out in the kitchen (learning how to cook) and none of them actually sit down at the table as a family. And its not a case of having to be gordon ramsay in the kitchen .

So i may not meet your criteria as to what makes a good parent or family but i know for certain that we are doing a fantastic job at it and theres plenty other parents of all ages out there doing the same.