Ministers defend plan to force jobless to do work

[bonus2010]

@bobwill
I do agree with most of what you say, however I don?t feel that it is fair to lay the blame completely on the jobless.

Let me share with you a real life story.....

My friend works for a furniture manufacturing company whose contracts are at least 90% public sector, in making furniture for schools. He told me that his company hired 14 new staff, all foreigners from eastern europe. His company had used an employment agency that specialises in the use of eastern european workers.

These new job vacancies were not advertised in the local jobcentre nor in the newspaper. So how on earth where jobseekers suppose to know about those new vacancies?

My friend explained that the foreign worker?s group hostel accommodation was also included in their package. The company paid wages at just above the minimum wage, but with nothing officially said, it was generaly indicated that the company thought that foreign workers were more reliable than hiring local job applicants. (clear discrimination here)

This situation has developed because our government hasn?t created any restrictions on employers that would protect British citizens. I heard that in Canada, employers are not able to hire foreigners if the skills required are available locally.

My opinion is, that public funds should be spent more wisely, and perhaps if school furniture contracts had included Europe for tender, then those foreign workers may not have needed to migrate in the first place. At least that decision would have helped council tax payers, if not the local unemplyed workforce.

I feel that employers should have a duty to consider the interests of British citizens first. Government should also legislate for this.

Hey, reform of the welfare benefits system is long-overdue, but we must remember who created this ? the government! That?s why it should be handled with care out of respect for the lifes the benefit system has ruined! It has helped wealthy landlords with their state supported housing rents of ?400+ per week.

[bobwill]

near where I live is Sizewell A and B nuclear power station and EDF a french company is going to build Sizewell C andD and could be E starting probably late next year
Talking to someone last night he said a local haulage company he knows near saxmundham has had a compulsory purchase order put on his premises to knock down and put up a hostel for foreign workers so they are not housed near uk workers and away from local towns, so as not to cause to much local hostility against the foreign workforce.
If this story is right it is a slap in the face for local building workers and travelling uk construction workers

[flyingpig]

Why do people think when they have a degree they are over qualified for a job...??? Degrees are nonsense, I have a BSc hons, and an MSc - and I have to say that they dont make people qualified to do a job - they help. To complete a degree you put in about 12 - 14 hours a week and that is with study.

Also, we have a lot of jobs which are low paid, and someone has to do them. In this country there are a lot of people who dont want to do certain jobs (waiting on, litter picking, cleaning streets, cleaning graffitti, cleaning parks etc.) and think that they are above them sort of jobs. Well I am afraid that these jobs need doing, and we have lots of jobs of that type.

If people want to sit on the dole and collect their money, well let us get them working for the state and do these jobs which will make the country and brighter and better place... And I am a socialist before anyone says anything to the contrary.

People can do them sort of jobs without much training, and they are getting paid off the state so let them work for the state. It's not degrading, it is just right.

If you are a single parent, you can work whilst your kids are in school. If you are disabled but able to work there is still a way you can contribute by completing admin type functions.

[Hoggy]

how can they force people into work when theres no jobs for these poor people

what there looking for is slave labour and giving the unemployed the same punishment as a criminal would get for robbing an old lady, stealing a car , assulting somebody or selling drugs on the street

what i dont understand about that article is if there going to force unemployed people into 30hours 9 till 5 work , when exactly are they supposed to look and find work , as most employers work between 9 and 5 and if there cleaning bins or sweeping streets for the local council when do these skilled unemployed workers go about rebuilding there life , they would be affectively be stuck in the lowest paid dead end job in the world ... as dont most people get stuck in dead end jobs because they lack the time to find better jobs?

how many employers do you know that pay 65? a week for 30 hours work ? ...... employed people would you work 30 hours a week for 65? , hell no you wouldn't i know i wouldn't

theres a minimum wage in this country that the people who set it are blaightently ignoring and effectively breaking there own law ???

if they expect people to work 30 hours a week then shouldn't they be paid minimum wage

the conservatives are a joke , stuck up rich boys that have never done a real days work in there life and havnt a clue how hard it is for the average man and family

worse thing that ever happened was let these idiots try and run the country they havnt a clue

Wow! If you could add education to that list at the bottom you'd be the next Prime Minister

[flyingpig]

how can they force people into work when theres no jobs for these poor people

what there looking for is slave labour and giving the unemployed the same punishment as a criminal would get for robbing an old lady, stealing a car , assulting somebody or selling drugs on the street

what i dont understand about that article is if there going to force unemployed people into 30hours 9 till 5 work , when exactly are they supposed to look and find work , as most employers work between 9 and 5 and if there cleaning bins or sweeping streets for the local council when do these skilled unemployed workers go about rebuilding there life , they would be affectively be stuck in the lowest paid dead end job in the world ... as dont most people get stuck in dead end jobs because they lack the time to find better jobs?

how many employers do you know that pay 65? a week for 30 hours work ? ...... employed people would you work 30 hours a week for 65? , hell no you wouldn't i know i wouldn't

theres a minimum wage in this country that the people who set it are blaightently ignoring and effectively breaking there own law ???

if they expect people to work 30 hours a week then shouldn't they be paid minimum wage

the conservatives are a joke , stuck up rich boys that have never done a real days work in there life and havnt a clue how hard it is for the average man and family

worse thing that ever happened was let these idiots try and run the country they havnt a clue

People are working 30 hours 9 till 5 Mon - Fri and do you honestly think they have not got time to look for other jobs??? Well most of the country work at least 37 and have been able to look for other jobs otherwise nobody would move jobs, because we would not have the time. WE MAKE THE TIME.

There benefits and any monies earned should at least match minimum wage but definitely not exceed it - unless they put more hours in, or turn it into a permanent job.

Why should anyone on benefits have more cash in their pockets to spend than someone who works hard all week?

[lickerdyslick]

my neice and her boyfriend have had a baby, he has an hmd in business and neither of them have held a job down for more than a month, we were talking money/benefits hes about ?80 a month worse off than me and i work 40 hours a week how can this be right!!!! i work for the local council and theres a policy hitting us called single status (robbing peter to pay paul) i will lose ?4000 a year so i will be worse off than them, i obviously need to find a new job but when you look at what there earning for doing sweet fa it makes you want to join them honestly.

[bonus2010]

[QUOTE=flyingpig;854384]
Also, we have a lot of jobs which are low paid, and someone has to do them. In this country there are a lot of people who dont want to do certain jobs (waiting on, litter picking, cleaning streets, cleaning graffitti, cleaning parks etc.)....
QUOTE]

@flyingpig

See this... lots of jobs that people don't want to do... are you sure?

Litter picking, cleaning streets, cleaning graffitti, cleaning parks etc.... are actually jobs performed by
council workers.

My friend has worked for the council in Environmental Services for many years. His basic salary is ?18,500 plus
with overtime / bonus plus plus... probably brings income to around ?25K.

Another mutual friend who was unemployed at the time applied for council vacancies advertised a couple of years ago.
One being a 'Gardener' and the other a 'Refuse Collector'. He didn't get either job, but did enquire
as to how many applicants applied. For both jobs there was in excess of 400 applicants for each job.
(Not short of applicants there...)

The salaries offered by councils is the 'going rate' for this type of work.

Why would anyone want to work for less than the 'going rate' especially when one is ask to pay council tax,
70% of which pays for the salaries of council workers?

I'm allright with market forces dictating wage rates, but surely it should apply to all..

Maybe it's the government's idea to make redundant council workers in the areas mentioned and replace
them with jobseekers working for their dole money...

[smirnoff_rules]

there r lads that r willing to work but theres nothing out there . l just gave a lad a start at my garage ,

l didnt need another lad but he said he didnt want to sign on and would work a week for a part time wage so l dont need to pay tax and nic

his 24 and wants to train in another trade

[jc69817]

hi all
when some of the above say its for ?65 why are they not taking into account not only the "dole" money but also the council tax the rent the free prescriptions the free dentistry etc. Im sure if you add all this up and divide by 30 then the hourly rate would come as quite a shock !!!!!
or maybe Im wrong

[bonus2010]

@jc69817

The reason why I feel it would be unfair to take into account 'council tax benefit, and
'housing benefit' is because both of those benefits are claimed by people who are in work.

So it's really unfair just to point the finger at the unemployed exclusively for claiming
those benefits.

As for 'free' prescriptions & dentistry don't have much info on this, but I heard that allowances
are made if you claim tax credits.

.

[Lainie]

just to set the record straight here

if the unemployed have their own accommodation (mostly private landlord as they wont live in council accommodation - FACT) then its not just ?65 a week they are getting.

they are prob getting at least ?600 a month in rent being paid
another ?150 a month getting their council tax paid
?65 a week jsa or esa
?50 a week ctc for each child (those that work get ?10 a week)
and their child benefit on top of that.


so to sumarise - we will use 2 adults on jsa with 2 kids

2 adults on jsa ?130 a week x 4 = 520
2 kids = ?100 a week ctc 400
rent 600
council tax 150
child benefit 33.70 a week = 134

total for a 4 week period = ?1804


now i earn less than ?850 a month for working a 30 hour week.

wheres the bloody justice in that!!


please note figures used as an average and are my calculations based on info from direct.gov.uk

[bonus2010]

@Lainie

Very interesting....
I'd say ?138/wk rent is rather good value for a Band E property.

It's worth noting, that child tax credit is a benefit for meeting the costs of raising children. This benefit
is paid to all parents who are either in work or out of work. The same goes for child benefit.

This is why I keep saying that it is wrong to focus on the unemployed for claiming those benefits, when working
parents are also claiming the same benefits... Housing benefit is exactly the same...and you have a higher
'applicable amount' if you have children.

Do you think council tax is really a benefit?
If someone doesn't have an income, how on earth can they pay tax? Supposing government used the same method of
collection for the revenue generated through income tax. We'd find that 99% of people in work would be income
tax benefit claimants. Council tax payable should be income related, not based on a property value.

The main reason why private rents are so high, is because government has basically corrupted
the private sector rent market by printing out blank cheques to private landlords for families
on benefit. Basically the private landlord sets the rent to the level dictated by the maximum the benefits
agency will pay (depending on family circumstances)

The justice - you've not included your CTC, WTC CA - families are more important than those without children.
It's your job to work hard and pay the taxes to raise the nation's children.
Well, that's was Gordon Brown's view... and I think it's also David Camerons.

[Lainie]

yes ctc is payable for raising children but those that work get far less then those that dont. all ctc does imo is encourage those that dont work to have more children so they can get bigger houses as their lha (local housing allowance) goes up for the more children you have.

of course council tax is a benefit. i have to pay nearly ?100 a month on my wage. i dont get any benefits. i have no intentions of paying for the nations children. its their parents job to do that.

ctc and child benefit are not counted as income for hb and ctb purposes.

most of my b/f's family dont work as they get it too easy on benefit. his mother has never worked a day in her life and thats snowballed to most of his family (thankfully not him) who now have their own kids and they dont work either.

[Allen1]

Apart from the lack of jobs other than Agency work which is often for short hours and if you are lucky they last more than a week, there is also the grief you get when you sign back on and all the form filling that it entails, I am talking about passed experiences here, I doubt if things have changed for the better though.

Living the life of luxury on the dole is pure fantasy, most people struggle and barely get by and many others are helped out by their families. It is demoralising to get no replies from the majority of employers and then made to feel guilty by the Jobcentre plus when you sign on or have yet another interview to attend. Most people would rather work and get a wage where they can better themselves and also get away from the attitude that they are forced to endure from a disgruntled pratt at the Jobcentre with the power to make their lives even worse.

Thankfully not all Jobcentre Plus personnel are like that but some are and you do get moved around.

Realistically an employer should be paying a proper wage and there should be no need for tax credits because its a low paid job, there is also the financial problems of getting to a job when you find one and most of the industrial parks or whatever are miles away from local transport, I know, I have gone for temp jobs and interviews in the past. I don't own a car and never passed my test so it is public transport that I depend on.

Some folk who are unemployed try to make the best of a bad situation, the person you may see being cheerful when others are around them, is probably putting on a brave face and it doesn't necessarily mean they are living the high life. I think a few of these posters want to get a reality check and maybe they will when its their job that is being axed.

[Meat-Head]

if the unemployed have their own accommodation (mostly private landlord as they wont live in council accommodation - FACT) then its not just ?65 a week they are getting.

they are prob getting at least ?600 a month in rent being paid

As DK is the worlds best website - chances are somebody from the gov'ment are reading this:-

Get rid of fat unemployed smelly people - scrap them - nobody has any use for them.