Bedroom tax, new thread !

[thered]

So you think that being able to do something such as walk 200 metres in great pain makes you capable of being employed ? Get Real !
Most of the people "on the sick" do it because they are sick, not because it is less hassle and more money. It is more money for those who worked and paid into the system, which is the reason you pay into the system. National Insurance is what is says "Insurance" you pay insurance for all sorts of things and you hope you do not have to claim, but if you do have reason to claim then at least that safety net is there....................or at least it should be.

"Stevie wonder could see through most claimants, and to be fair the best GP in the world makes a diagnosis on what YOU the patient tells them, i can tell them what i want and the clued up only need a go or rejection letter before the can tick the correct boxes to win an appeal. It was said when i was growing up that we would soon follow america into the prescription drug culture of anti-depressants like ambulance chasers and mcdonalds we follow our american cousins a lot
We now have different generations who cannot cope without anti-depressants, makes me wonder how anyone survived before, when we had rations and wars too fight
We now get everything for FREE and we are all depressed about it"

Stevie Wonder would do a better job, because would not have been instructed to fail as many as possible !
So why do we bother with GPs, Hospital Consultants and Surgeons diagnosis if they just accept what we tell them ? I don't know what sort of doctor you see but mine examine people and then refer to hospitals and specialists if they find anomolies and these Spialist Consultants and Surgeons obviously know nothing by your reckoning, but someone off the street with 4 weeks training by ATOS is capable of instant diagnosis and in many cases provide instant cures of all ills.............well at least by their completed "medical assessments".

I respect your opinion but we wont agree, i may be way off with my analogy that most inapacity benefit people are ok to work and the majority of people that fail ATOS interviews are capable but everybody i know who is on the sick and has been on years is ok

They say they cant walk yet they can, i know there is exceptions who get wrongly messed up but these are rare and jumped on by the mirror for example to make it look like they are forcing cripples to work when in reality its a little different

Now with regards to GP's you get 2 kinds of people

Ones who get on with it and ones who cry to GP everyday but both have same symptoms

Yes scanners and specialist docs can give you a picture or a diagnosis , but they dont give what you can and cant do you do. For example my nan has arthritis medically proven she is ok but it plays up from time to time, if she was inclined too she could say it caused her so much pain she couldnt walk

She has evidence, its BS but she could claim money with medical fact

My wife has just been for mri on her back, it shows a number of issues and degeneration of the spine but she has a couple of pain killers and deals with it. She could use this evidence to claim mobility

Its ultimately the patient who decides the injury could be identical, but if my wife says she cannot walk 50m and has an mri to prove it then thats that

Atos is a tick box system tick the boxes win the prizes, YOU give the answers the medical history is the witness statement, answer them wrong you go on JSA its simple

Scanners and medical equipment can flag up things that patients dont even know they have, and that does not create them any problems, what you tell the doctor forms the diagnosis

[rds60h]

Thered, I'm glad we can respect each others opinion and I can understand some of your views but when you have worked all your life and it then happens to you and you then have to deal with this discrimination; because that is what it is, and the shame of being in that position and then find that you have to fight every inch of the way just to get what you have paid in for all your working life and are therefore entitled to it really does open your eyes !
I know there are people taking advantage of the benefits system and as you say you can openly see some of those people, but it is not those people that are targeted because DWP know they would kick off and make taking any action very difficult and so they take the soft option and target the weak and vulnerable sections. Yes I know there are scammers in these sections as well, but as you have said and to some extent I agree with they tend to openly flaunt the fact so why not send the time and money targeting them.
I also said about those who abuse the system from the other side of the fence, those supposedly contributing to ease the situation but in fact robbing it ! How much do you ever hear of those people being chased up to recompense the system they have robbed ? How often do you hear those employed vilifying en-masse those rogues ? Yet, this theft of finances accounting for many millions of pounds is perpetrated by just a few and so they are actually more responsible for fraudulent costs to the system than those claiming benefits they are not really entitled to.

[thered]

Thered, I'm glad we can respect each others opinion and I can understand some of your views but when you have worked all your life and it then happens to you and you then have to deal with this discrimination; because that is what it is, and the shame of being in that position and then find that you have to fight every inch of the way just to get what you have paid in for all your working life and are therefore entitled to it really does open your eyes !
I know there are people taking advantage of the benefits system and as you say you can openly see some of those people, but it is not those people that are targeted because DWP know they would kick off and make taking any action very difficult and so they take the soft option and target the weak and vulnerable sections. Yes I know there are scammers in these sections as well, but as you have said and to some extent I agree with they tend to openly flaunt the fact so why not send the time and money targeting them.
I also said about those who abuse the system from the other side of the fence, those supposedly contributing to ease the situation but in fact robbing it ! How much do you ever hear of those people being chased up to recompense the system they have robbed ? How often do you hear those employed vilifying en-masse those rogues ? Yet, this theft of finances accounting for many millions of pounds is perpetrated by just a few and so they are actually more responsible for fraudulent costs to the system than those claiming benefits they are not really entitled to.

If any needy fail Atos interview they need to go back and get the correct boxes ticked, what people do who genuinely have an illness and no clue how the system works make light of it or dont describe it properley as if the person should know

The people who know how to get benefit know the parameters to get it, thats where people maybe yourself fail citizens advice usually know what to put in terms of points scored and boxes ticked

and yes system is not ideal but there does need to be a line drawn somewhere or virtually anyone could claim

[GastonJ]

The government should use my method for it's decision on whether people should get disability:

1) Line the claiments up 50 at a time in a stadium with a high wall with 50 rope ladders at the far end
2) Release the 50 hungry lions 5 yards behind the claiments
3) Those that run, climb the rope ladders and live aren't disabled so get kicked out to get a job with no money 'cos they were lying
4) Those that get eaten are disabled and if they live can claim. If they don't it's a saving

Simple really and it worked for the Romans It also saves having to feed the lions, and I'm pretty sure would result in less people wanting to make a claim. WIn win eh

[Saltire]

Listen, if this is any help to anyone that I know from on here, I wont give to anyone I dont know, so if you dont know me and I dont know you on here (DK) then dont even ask, I have the actual ESA/50 form that is only meant for the eyes of the ATOS or social security mob to look at, it details basically to cut this story short, it details what you should and should not fill in with ESA/50 form, all you need to do is pm me your email address and I will email it to you, you will need adobe reader installed to read it as its a .pdf type of document, if you dont already have adobe reader which is free then download it here >>> Adobe - Adobe Reader download - All versions Hope this may help some people, and if its old news to some of you then fine, no need to even comment on it.

p.s
if you do pm me, please state what it is you are after as I get other pm's from time to time too. cheers.

[thered]

What you need to score the 15 points needed either by 1 hit or an accumulation to 15

http://www.welfarerightsforums.com/uploads/3/0/1/9/3019934/esa_descriptors_from_28jan2013.pdf

[rds60h]

What you need to score the 15 points needed either by 1 hit or an accumulation to 15

http://www.welfarerightsforums.com/u..._28jan2013.pdf

Thank you Thered for that link, I do realise that you are trying to be helpful with it. But..................

Just to pinpoint how useless this form and it's scoring system is you need to go no further than Part 1.
(This first question has only just been reworded this year ! The question did not used to state "if such aid is normally,or could reasonably be worn or used)
Part 1: Physical disabilities
Activity

1. Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid if such aid is normally, or could reasonably be, worn or used.

Unless you are paraplegic who without the use of a wheelchair cannot move 50 metres ? And what defines "could reasonably be ,worn or used" because if you do not have a wheelchair and do not wish to have a wheelchair because it means that you will no longer exercise your legs and this could result in muscle wastage and ultimately being unable to walk altogether.



4. Picking up and moving or transferring by the use of the upper body and arms.
(a) Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid.
15
(b) Cannot pick up and move a one litre carton full of liquid.
9
(c) Cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as an empty cardboard box.
6
(d) None of the above apply.


This question does not state from where this carton of 0.5 Litre liquid or Cardboard box is situated. There are people who will be able to pick those items up when they are at table height but would be unable to pick up the Items if they were lower down such as below knee height because their particular injury/illness/disability restricts them from bending. Altough it does not state a position to be picked up and place down to ATOS only mark on the ability to do so from table height.


The questionnaire listed is much shorter than the forms I completed at the outset over 2 years ago, and the Disability Living Allowance form were even longer and more contrived.
And even if you answer one way it does not mean that is the answer that the ATOS "medical professional" will enter on the form at the assessment.

[scouse645]

The shower of toffs that pass as a coalition partner have always hated the welfare state, the banking crisis has given them the chance to do to the poor what they have always wanted, in the guise of cuts to balance the books, where all in this together, don't make me laugh, no one is saying the welfare state didn't need reform, but to hit the needy and not the greedy is a disgrace, the bedroom tax, thats what it is, is done with great delight, as can be seen by that horrible git duncan smith smirking his way through every PMQ on a wednesday when its brought up again by a labour mp, if you believe all the lies spouted daily by the right wing press you would think thousands of people are claiming benefits for large families of astronomical amounts, these very large amounts are the exception and not the rule, by the way i do believe in a welfare cap to be done in a balanced and fair way, there are people in one of the richest countries in the world being demonised for falling on hard times, many through the callous regard for jobs, it should be remembered what the toffs said more than three years ago, that the deficit would be gone in one parliament, instead they have borrowed more than the previous government and still blame brown and darling to this day, i don't remember brown and darling running the economies in greece, ireland, spain, iceland, etc, they did what was needed at the time to save the banks, i get the feeling all policies of the toffs and there partners are designed to enrich there friends and set up nice jobs at a later date. just to add that i don't claim but do have a social conscience.

[thered]

Thank you Thered for that link, I do realise that you are trying to be helpful with it. But..................

Just to pinpoint how useless this form and it's scoring system is you need to go no further than Part 1.
(This first question has only just been reworded this year ! The question did not used to state "if such aid is normally,or could reasonably be worn or used)
Part 1: Physical disabilities
Activity

1. Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid if such aid is normally, or could reasonably be, worn or used.

Unless you are paraplegic who without the use of a wheelchair cannot move 50 metres ? And what defines "could reasonably be ,worn or used" because if you do not have a wheelchair and do not wish to have a wheelchair because it means that you will no longer exercise your legs and this could result in muscle wastage and ultimately being unable to walk altogether.



4. Picking up and moving or transferring by the use of the upper body and arms.
(a) Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid.
15
(b) Cannot pick up and move a one litre carton full of liquid.
9
(c) Cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as an empty cardboard box.
6
(d) None of the above apply.


This question does not state from where this carton of 0.5 Litre liquid or Cardboard box is situated. There are people who will be able to pick those items up when they are at table height but would be unable to pick up the Items if they were lower down such as below knee height because their particular injury/illness/disability restricts them from bending. Altough it does not state a position to be picked up and place down to ATOS only mark on the ability to do so from table height.


The questionnaire listed is much shorter than the forms I completed at the outset over 2 years ago, and the Disability Living Allowance form were even longer and more contrived.
And even if you answer one way it does not mean that is the answer that the ATOS "medical professional" will enter on the form at the assessment.

If for instance you cant pick it up from the floor just say no, its simple really

People fail by over complicating, normally its the genuine people making out like the ATOS health official should understand but all he does is tick boxes

If you say i can pick it up from level surface but cant bend down its a yes you can pick it up, no boxes ticked

Say no your box is ticked

Simple

[Saltire]

What you need to score the 15 points needed either by 1 hit or an accumulation to 15

http://www.welfarerightsforums.com/u..._28jan2013.pdf

nah, thats not it, I have the actual real form with all the do's and donts in it etc, not just that type you have there, its the actual real full form.

[Saltire]

ok, emailed that form out to the people that required it etc, well apart from one guy, you forgot to give me your email address, , you'll know who you are. cheers

[rds60h]

If for instance you cant pick it up from the floor just say no, its simple really

People fail by over complicating, normally its the genuine people making out like the ATOS health official should understand but all he does is tick boxes

If you say i can pick it up from level surface but cant bend down its a yes you can pick it up, no boxes ticked

Say no your box is ticked

Simple

But that isn't simple, you are lying......................................and that is what the real scroungers do !
It is the Officials, whether they be from ATOS or DWP or anywhere else that are the ones who are coached about the contents of the forms, so if there is any ambiguity in the form it should be them that correctly input the information. But as I said they are set targets to get people off benefits so the majority will always mark the forms in favour of DWP and not enter the truth !
Unfortunately your solution would mean there would be no difference between the genuine cases and the scammers and so would further blur the identification of the scammers.
Lets be fair we all want the scammers and the scroungers to be found out and have action taken against them, but until simple things like these ambiguous forms and questionnaires are corrected, the system is set up to suit liars and make the genuine truthful people suffer.

[GastonJ]

If someone wants to lie then they will, there's always going to be people who take advantage. I'd sooner the government didn't punish the majority (who I would like to think are genuine) because of the minority though - which is the usual bollox they come out with. Lions are the answer though

[Saltire]

Ok thats another few forms emailed to the peeps who asked for them, hope it is of some help for you or anyone you know, cheers

p.s, please keep these forms to yourself as we are not really meant to even have them at all. Thanks.

[Saltire]

ok, so that bbc video may be a couple of weeks old, but as I said before, this is the sign of things to come, brilliant Its all gonna end up in tears for the Government, hahahahahahahahahhaaha !

BBC News - 'Bedroom tax' failing, says housing associations' report